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<blockquote data-quote="Starfox" data-source="post: 6149984" data-attributes="member: 2303">Hm, good point you make here. What I meant to say about the three pillars is that the word &quot;narrative&quot; in this context is so badly defined that it is actually useless. We spent pages on this thread just trying to find a definition, and the best we came up with was &quot;non-combat&quot;. Compared to that, the three pillars do seem like an improvement - and the pillars being three (not just combat/noncombat) implies there might be more, so there is room for considerations like &quot;investigation&quot;. Still, we can't make the pillars too many, or they outweigh combat - a lot of table time is spent on combat, and thus combat abilities matter alot.But as you point out, there is another possible meaning of &quot;narrative powers&quot;, and that is what you call scene framing. Like the infiltration power mentioned upthread, which is really a subplot resolved in an abstract manner. And some spells fall into that category, but DnD mainly shies away from such powers, especially for martial characters. DnD has traditionally been much too stimulationist to include off-stage events as powers. Perhaps those who deride this discussion and say martial characters should use what abilities they have instead of complaining have a point here - if you want to get the effect of as spell through hard work and skill, you should play that out and not ask the rules to give it to you for free. At the same time, if there are two possible ways to do something - one involving an hour or more of difficult role-play, the other involving a simple spell, most parties will take the spell, letting the spellcaster outshine the rouge. In 4E when many of these powers were made into lengthy rituals, some of my players complained that the magic got pre-empted by cruder but faster mundane solutions - a complete turnaround from earlier editions. Balance is so hard to achieve.So, where does this lead us? Well, primarily it lets us refine our language, breaking up the fuzzy term &quot;narrative&quot; into different sub-meanings that are more useful and comprehensible, such as the &quot;three pillars&quot; and &quot;scene framing&quot; - tough I still think we need a better term for the later. We need to develop the concepts and tools before we can come to grips with the problem itself.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Starfox, post: 6149984, member: 2303"] Hm, good point you make here. What I meant to say about the three pillars is that the word "narrative" in this context is so badly defined that it is actually useless. We spent pages on this thread just trying to find a definition, and the best we came up with was "non-combat". Compared to that, the three pillars do seem like an improvement - and the pillars being three (not just combat/noncombat) implies there might be more, so there is room for considerations like "investigation". Still, we can't make the pillars too many, or they outweigh combat - a lot of table time is spent on combat, and thus combat abilities matter alot. But as you point out, there is another possible meaning of "narrative powers", and that is what you call scene framing. Like the infiltration power mentioned upthread, which is really a subplot resolved in an abstract manner. And some spells fall into that category, but DnD mainly shies away from such powers, especially for martial characters. DnD has traditionally been much too stimulationist to include off-stage events as powers. Perhaps those who deride this discussion and say martial characters should use what abilities they have instead of complaining have a point here - if you want to get the effect of as spell through hard work and skill, you should play that out and not ask the rules to give it to you for free. At the same time, if there are two possible ways to do something - one involving an hour or more of difficult role-play, the other involving a simple spell, most parties will take the spell, letting the spellcaster outshine the rouge. In 4E when many of these powers were made into lengthy rituals, some of my players complained that the magic got pre-empted by cruder but faster mundane solutions - a complete turnaround from earlier editions. Balance is so hard to achieve. So, where does this lead us? Well, primarily it lets us refine our language, breaking up the fuzzy term "narrative" into different sub-meanings that are more useful and comprehensible, such as the "three pillars" and "scene framing" - tough I still think we need a better term for the later. We need to develop the concepts and tools before we can come to grips with the problem itself. [/QUOTE]

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