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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mike Eagling" data-source="post: 6150572" data-attributes="member: 6703609">I'm reminded of two sayings: "With great power comes great responsibility" and "if you make your bed you'd better lie in it".Can we at least agree that if no effort is made to curb the inherent power and versatility of magic in the campaign world then it will, almost by definition, run rampant across its face? If the deck is deliberately or inadvertently stacked in favour of a few PCs with all the magic and no comparable adversaries then they will dominate everyone else, playstyle choice or not.There are strategic methods to curb this. Some may see this as nerfing the spell casters. I don't agree. I won't agree and I don't think it's a particularly worthwhile discussion in this thread.Which brings me back to the matter at hand:There are strategic methods for increasing narrative options for player characters. These involve immersing the PCs in the machinations of the campaign world. AD&D included many of these as standard: strongholds for fighters, thieves guilds for thieves, the hierarchical struggles of druids and monks. ACKS (re-)introduces some of these campaign concepts. So does Pathfinder's Ultimate Campaign. Options abound for characters to carve out their own niche in the wider world, to exert their influence and make their own plot instead of sitting around in a tavern waiting for someone to give them a quest.So, we're left with narrative options at a tactical level.There seem to be two strands to this: the three pillars of combat, exploration and interaction; and scene framing.For me, D&D is cause and effect. I'm not interested in players negotiating or bidding for the opportunity to retcon the environment. There are other games in which I can do this, if I want. If I cast a spell to change the environment I'm not retconning, I'm creating an effect from a cause. I should arguably be able to use a mundane skill (or series thereof) to produce a comparable effect, possibly by re-framing the environment in my favour. There are plenty of ways to get past a wall without inventing a secret passage only my character seems to know about. This will likely take longer (in the fiction) than casting a spell but that's the benefit of magic, in my opinion.Neither am I particularly interested in abstractly resolving opportunities for role playing encounters like infiltration in the short term. Stood outside the castle and want to get in? Cause and effect: get with the climb and stealth skills. However, taking my cue from the 1e AD&D assassination rules, I think it's entirely feasible for a thief/rogue to devote some portion of in-fiction time to infiltrate an organisation ahead of time. Think Lando Calrissian at Jabba's palace. This is where the "Surprise! It's me!" feat works, primarily because it's a strategic campaign process.Long distance travel can be handled in an equally mundane fashion. A ranger or similarly skilled character should be able to travel great distances whilst avoiding or evading encounters. Arguably the time required to do this should be proportional to the number of travelling companions--even a large group of people can likely avoid any problems provided they don't mind taking long detours or remaining hidden for extended periods. The "anti-magic" camouflage skill is an interesting idea. I was reminded of the scene in LotR when the Fellowship evade Saruman's crebain or the Nazgul in the Dead Marshes. The evasion of magic wasn't explicit but the comparison sprung to mind. So too did Legolas' enhanced vision. It's debatable whether or not this is a magical effect but there is perhaps room for mundane perception skills that go beyond low-light vision.The "conscript a militia" idea from up thread is interesting as a mundane summon "spell". A comparable "hue and cry" ability could enable a character to call upon joe public to grab the villain attempting to make his get away--a literal "hold person" if you will. Clearly, both of these skills/feats/whatever only work in suitable (urban) environments with a population that is at worst neutral to the character. Then again, even in an ostensibly hostile environment, the "general public" may not realise the person running away is actually on "their side" rather than the authoritative person demanding they be stopped...The Conan d20 system has a temptress class. At its most basic this is a femme fatale but has scope for wider concepts. Whatever the details, there's scope for mundane charm and beguile skills that go beyond the usual bluff, intimidate and diplomacy. These could also be employed at a strategic level, consider Margaery Tyrell.I'm sure there are loads of other possibilities. These are the ones that have currently sprung to mind.</blockquote>

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