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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Balesir" data-source="post: 6150785" data-attributes="member: 27160">A few thoughts have occured to me following the recent discussion that I think tie back to the original thread topic (hooray!)It seems to me that, with the traditional D&D aesthetic, the problem facing "mundane" characters is what I'll call, for want of a better term, "relevant event density". I'll try to explain it, but please bear with me as it's a concept forming in my mind as I type...Take the infiltration scenario as an example. Success at the task - which I take to be "get into a role in the castle that will get you close to the king at the critical time" - requires a plethora of steps. Many of them are semi-stochastic (they rely on luck, but any one of a range of potantial lucky breaks will do) and many are information-based (discovering the social hierarchies and webs of influence among the castle staff). As a result, the task requires a very large number of discrete steps, some of which may be "try once only - fail = total failure" while others are "get multiple tries, each try uses time and carries a small risk of total failure".Running a solo sequence with the rogue player may be something that some groups will be happy to do; some may even think of this as an ideal roleplaying style. But, for other groups, this just leaves several players excluded and bored, so the rogue simply never gets to do the "solo infiltration" schtick*.Looking at what the issue is, here, though, it seems to me to be tied to the number of discrete actions/events required, since it is these, not the amount of elapsed "game time" that determines how much real time it takes to achieve something in the game. Compare the rogues extended sequence of sneaking, listening, disguising, bluffing and so on with the spellcaster's "I cast spell Y". There are two obvious ways to combat this:1) Make the spellcasters take more actions to cast a spell. Maybe a spell has several stages and sections, each of which needs to be completed, in order to cast it. Maybe the magical currents that eddy and flow around the game world need to be aligned just right (possibly requiring casting from just such-and-such a position) for the spell to work. Or...2) Make it so that convoluted sequences of "mundane" action can be specified and adjudicated in just one step, just as spellcasting (in D&D) can be.Here is a sketch of what (2) might look like:- The acting character formulates a plan, stating what they intend to achieve and the steps they intend to take to achieve it.- The game system lays out, for each of several "difficulties" of task, a roll or sequence of rolls or requirements needed for the task (e.g. a task might require a DC XX roll, or Y DC ZZ rolls with Y being reduced for training in relevant skills, minimum movement rates, vision abilities (like LLV) and so on).- The DM decides what the difficulty is, and the player(s) between them (including the DM) decide what skills/attributes may apply. Each skill/attribute might raise the DC by an average amount, but the acting player doesn't have to accept skills or attributes the character is poor in. For example, in the infiltration example, the system might look like this:i) The task is difficult and has DC 18.ii) A background including disguise and a disguise kit each reduce the DC by 2.iii) Stealth (DEX), bluff (CHA), perception (WIS) and streetwise (WIS) are all relevant and can be used to boost the roll, but each one used increases the DC by 2 (by making the plan more complex - although the the rule system or the DM might rule bluff and streetwise mandatory for this plan).iv) The character has good DEX and CHA, but poor WIS, so the player decides on a plan using stealth, bluff and streetwise (mandatory).v) Optional skills/attributes might add effects to the outcome, perhaps. For example, using perception might add one or more situational pieces of information to a successful outcome (e.g. the rogue gets into position, and also knows that several extra guards are behind _that_ door), thus making their use attractive even if they increase the DC somewhat.The negotiation/decision over the precise structure of the test should really not be too complex; the system for formulating the trial should therefore be quite specific and precise. Maybe, as someone else suggested, the mechanism should work via saving throws, rather than "success rolls", but it makes little real difference in the end. Basically, the idea is to make "mundane" plans of any sort a "one shot deal", similar to spells, rather than a "well, we could go off and solo that for half an hour..."* The way that infiltration, etc. is excluded/discouraged might be problematic (I have known DMs make rogues make multiple "succeed or get caught" skill checks for this sort of thing, which just makes it so difficult as to be useless), but I regard that as a separate and not neccessarily related problem.</blockquote>

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