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Narrative Space Options for non-spellcasters
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<blockquote data-quote="N'raac" data-source="post: 6150825" data-attributes="member: 6681948"><p>So, what, first you want to invest all of your character resources in being a big, huking brute, sacrificing wit, charm and insight to do so. Then you want to be a forceful, respected leader in the campaign world. These seem inconsistent to me. I would expect that the ability to influence people would be largely CHA-based. About the only reasonable exception I perceive would be intimiation-based interaction, an arena the game has decided to base on CHA (which I think is also a reasonable approach).</p><p></p><p>Leadership does not presently require high CHA to take, although it is (and should be) influenced by CHA. But Leadership's primary function seems to be that Cohort, and the addition of Cohorts is not welcome in a lot of groups. Now, what about a second feat, designed to provide larger numbers of low level, low power followers, and not provide cohorts? This would then be the feat one would take to build, say, a Mage College, a private army, a thieves' guild (or a merchant's guilt, for that matter) or a religious congregation? Perhaps we simply move the Followers down, say, 6 spaces on the chart ( so Leadership Level 4 attracts 5 L1 followers - that's average CHA at the earliest point you can take the feat) and the Cohort 4 lines up 4 levels (only at 6th do you get a cohort - so you need an above average CHA for this at L4, and even then you get a low level cohort). </p><p></p><p>Let's also add that the Cohort is not an adventuring companion, but a sub-leader. A junior officer, sergeant at arms, college registrar or what have you - your right hand man, certainly, but not in adventuring, in your private influence.</p><p></p><p>Ultimately, the game is about choices. If you choose to dedicate all your character resources to being the biggest, toughest, meanest, most powerful monster killer possible, then that is where you chose to focus, and that is the area where you will be able to succeed. If you are not prepared to dedicate any resources to any other activity, then you should not be surprised that you are not good at those activities, and may have to rely on your teammates when the challenges enter those arenas.</p><p></p><p>Now, maybe I'm a Mean Old GM, but I don't see the wizard, say, having such huge advantages in this arena. He can dump CHA, just like the fighter, without impairing his combat functionality (that Sorcerer has an advantage here). He probably focuses his skills on Spellcraft, UMD and esoteric Knowledge, and has no interaction skills. He can probably spare some skill points for interaction skills (an advantage not shared by the sorcerer), but they're still cross-class.</p><p></p><p>Sure, he can Charm someone. At least in my games, a Charm Person spell is not "diplomacy". A Fighter can threaten his life, or others he cares for. A person aproached by a persuasive (or not so persuasive) request may accept, or may reject, based on the diplomacy results. He's unlikely to be offended by the attempt. But a Charm spell is not diplomacy. First, you are casting a spell, a pretty obvious action. If the target does save, don't expect the target's response to be anything positive. If he does not, he is still not going to be happy when the enchantment wears off and his mind is no longer ensorcled. Just like those extortion efforts by the fighter or rogue are unlikely to carry a long-term result of a friendly ally.</p><p></p><p>And let's assume you have, and can maintain, Charm on the Duke. Do his existing allies suspect nothing? Does the spellcaster lack a reputation for these abilities (whether deserved from prior history, or uneserved because "everyone knows" wizards do that sort of thing)? Dispel Magic won't eliminate my successful efforts at diplomacy which have built a relationship of trust and friendship with the Duke, nor does Detect Magic raise cause for suspicion. They're pretty effective against that Charmed Person.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Investment in a feat is investment of character resources, so sure. You can already Skill Focus your diplomacy, and Negotiator will add a further +2. More feats, or feat chains, linked to skills and other noncombat activities would help, but again, this means redirecting resources from that "Hulking Brute" (or "Potent caster") structure to be good at something else. For the Fighter, that means giving up some combat prowess for non-combat abilities. That could include investing in INT and CHA (skill points and interaction skill bonuses) and having less STR/CON/DEX, directing skill points at interaction skills, selecting feats that enhance this aspect of the character, investing wealth in magic that enhances these, rather than combat abilities, etc. But it means choosing to be a more effective Leader of Men at the cost of being a less effective one on one combatant.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="N'raac, post: 6150825, member: 6681948"] So, what, first you want to invest all of your character resources in being a big, huking brute, sacrificing wit, charm and insight to do so. Then you want to be a forceful, respected leader in the campaign world. These seem inconsistent to me. I would expect that the ability to influence people would be largely CHA-based. About the only reasonable exception I perceive would be intimiation-based interaction, an arena the game has decided to base on CHA (which I think is also a reasonable approach). Leadership does not presently require high CHA to take, although it is (and should be) influenced by CHA. But Leadership's primary function seems to be that Cohort, and the addition of Cohorts is not welcome in a lot of groups. Now, what about a second feat, designed to provide larger numbers of low level, low power followers, and not provide cohorts? This would then be the feat one would take to build, say, a Mage College, a private army, a thieves' guild (or a merchant's guilt, for that matter) or a religious congregation? Perhaps we simply move the Followers down, say, 6 spaces on the chart ( so Leadership Level 4 attracts 5 L1 followers - that's average CHA at the earliest point you can take the feat) and the Cohort 4 lines up 4 levels (only at 6th do you get a cohort - so you need an above average CHA for this at L4, and even then you get a low level cohort). Let's also add that the Cohort is not an adventuring companion, but a sub-leader. A junior officer, sergeant at arms, college registrar or what have you - your right hand man, certainly, but not in adventuring, in your private influence. Ultimately, the game is about choices. If you choose to dedicate all your character resources to being the biggest, toughest, meanest, most powerful monster killer possible, then that is where you chose to focus, and that is the area where you will be able to succeed. If you are not prepared to dedicate any resources to any other activity, then you should not be surprised that you are not good at those activities, and may have to rely on your teammates when the challenges enter those arenas. Now, maybe I'm a Mean Old GM, but I don't see the wizard, say, having such huge advantages in this arena. He can dump CHA, just like the fighter, without impairing his combat functionality (that Sorcerer has an advantage here). He probably focuses his skills on Spellcraft, UMD and esoteric Knowledge, and has no interaction skills. He can probably spare some skill points for interaction skills (an advantage not shared by the sorcerer), but they're still cross-class. Sure, he can Charm someone. At least in my games, a Charm Person spell is not "diplomacy". A Fighter can threaten his life, or others he cares for. A person aproached by a persuasive (or not so persuasive) request may accept, or may reject, based on the diplomacy results. He's unlikely to be offended by the attempt. But a Charm spell is not diplomacy. First, you are casting a spell, a pretty obvious action. If the target does save, don't expect the target's response to be anything positive. If he does not, he is still not going to be happy when the enchantment wears off and his mind is no longer ensorcled. Just like those extortion efforts by the fighter or rogue are unlikely to carry a long-term result of a friendly ally. And let's assume you have, and can maintain, Charm on the Duke. Do his existing allies suspect nothing? Does the spellcaster lack a reputation for these abilities (whether deserved from prior history, or uneserved because "everyone knows" wizards do that sort of thing)? Dispel Magic won't eliminate my successful efforts at diplomacy which have built a relationship of trust and friendship with the Duke, nor does Detect Magic raise cause for suspicion. They're pretty effective against that Charmed Person. Investment in a feat is investment of character resources, so sure. You can already Skill Focus your diplomacy, and Negotiator will add a further +2. More feats, or feat chains, linked to skills and other noncombat activities would help, but again, this means redirecting resources from that "Hulking Brute" (or "Potent caster") structure to be good at something else. For the Fighter, that means giving up some combat prowess for non-combat abilities. That could include investing in INT and CHA (skill points and interaction skill bonuses) and having less STR/CON/DEX, directing skill points at interaction skills, selecting feats that enhance this aspect of the character, investing wealth in magic that enhances these, rather than combat abilities, etc. But it means choosing to be a more effective Leader of Men at the cost of being a less effective one on one combatant. [/QUOTE]
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