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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The Mormegil" data-source="post: 6151150" data-attributes="member: 6688783">*Answering the OP*The problem as I see it is that by having classes that are based on not having any magic you are cutting them off of magic. I don't know if there's people who don't care, I don't know if there's people who didn't notice or even like this, but look at it from a system standpoint.What is D&D about? Fantasy roleplaying. What is fantasy? Well, mostly how stuff could be with magic. Low magic, high magic, technomagic, whatever you call it, if there ain't dragons it ain't D&D. So, magic is a pervasive element in the narrative, it's expected to be, it's important and people know it. There's tons of rules for it. There's also tons of fun to be had with it. It's goddamn magic!And yet we keep allowing classes whose main characteristic is "I dun deal wit dat stuff duh". So, basically, we have characters that when confronting with the most interesting and important part of the setting (I admit this is arguable, but still, it IS important), have the only option to say "duh" or "I'll be over there doing other stuff". There's a mysterious light pillar in the center of the room: what's the fighter to do? Well he ain't rolling Knowledge (arcane) for it that's sure. He isn't going to use an Identify ritual or whatever the system has in place to understand what's going on.Now I get the whole "spotlight" point of view. I will also flat out state that I believe it sucks, because a game should not aim to make sure everybody is equally bored, it should make sure everybody has fun while playing. I want everybody to be able to participate in each meaningful scene. But that is not something really important to the point. Why? Because the other classes aren't arbitrarily cut off from important pieces of the game. A wizard can contribute to fights. To "balance" his advantage in magic-based situations you could argue he should suck in every fight and have nothing to contribute, and I think there's people that believe that should be true.However even if you do that (and you don't), wizards will still be able to contribute to fights. Ever had that brilliant moment where the wizard without spells loosened the chains of an enraged beast who slaughtered the orcs and allowed the party to win the fight? Or the wizard who just blew up the whole place with a well placed... torch?There is an intrinsic problem with magic. And that is, to be blunt, that it isn't real. You don't know how magic works, but you bloody well know how a torch works. If your character has no in-game, systemic ways to interact with magic, you may as well just shut up in magic-based situations. But if your character has no idea how to approach a social situation, you can always contribute ("You shouldn't because roleplay and blah blah blah" whatever you can. With magic no you can't, unless you try stuff at random and hope it works, and I've seen plenty of fighters doing exactly that, even if occasionally they blew the party up, because doing nothing is no fun.)You could argue that a "proper" and "consistent" magic system would solve that, but first, it requires extensive out-of-character knowledge of system mechanics that newcomers won't have, and second, it won't work on anything houseruled or invented for the adventure. I guess that's where the love for gargantuan spell lists comes from, but I really think that's not the best path to remedy this problem. It restricts the DM and it creates disparities, problems and excludes new players.What I think is truly needed to "balance" fighters and wizards from a narrative point of view, is ways for the fighters (and rogues and warlords and... everyone) to interact with the most interesting part of every setting: MAGIC.It doesn't need to be spells. It doesn't need to be skills. It doesn't need to be the same ways wizards or priests or what-have-you interact with magic. It can very well be what sets the class apart from everyone else (ever wondered why Spellthieves were so popular in 3.5, even though the class had literally NOTHING worth anything to anyone ever? I think this is the reason: they had a unique approach to magic, RP wise).Let barbarians smell magic. Let rogues steal spells and eldritch tapestries. Let rangers create magic traps (and therefore know about them). Let fighters understand magic, damn it, why wouldn't they? Hey, here's this thing called magic, it reshapes the world, but no don't learn anything about it even though you may very well be killed by a fireball in battle, you won't need it and you're too dumb lol. They don't need to be doing magic, but I bloody well know that airplanes fly and have wings without being an engineer! I know how a computer works on a surface level and I use a computer every day without being a programmer! Why would anyone in any fantasy world ever decide to not interact with magic, anyway?TL;DR: you should make sure every character can do stuff about magic because not being able to sucks. Invent creative ways to achieve that goal without making everything into a wizard.</blockquote>

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