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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6632977" data-attributes="member: 82106">Yup!I just don't see the guy that is at the top of the LE society, who probably broke all the rules to get there and now only wants them to be enforced because they benefit him as BEING lawful. He doesn't value or regard LAW in any sense. It is just a convenient lever for him to use to get what he really wants, power. He doesn't FOLLOW any laws, he just USES them. He's truly neutral evil, maybe even chaotic in his own temperament. The society he stands atop may be "lawful" in a sense, those under him obey because they must, or maybe because they genuinely want to. This is an amusing thought, the arch devil agrees with the elf, "yeah, laws actually suck, but only for the poor slobs that are stuck under my thumb!" But, as I say, I wouldn't call that arch devil 'lawful', he doesn't care about the law.OK, well, that's interesting. I suppose you could use that argument, that law has no intrinsic value, good and evil simply use it for different ends. In that case though they have nothing REALLY in common. I mean if paladins only value the law because it furthers good, and devils because it furthers evil, then sure maybe they compare notes on bridge night, but mostly they might as well fight each other as hard as they would anyone else, and LN is just out to lunch, they laugh at modrons (and the modrons probably despise LG and LE more even than chaos). Right. I think there's always room for conflict though. The elf and the arch devil may agree that laws suck, but then the elf's next statement is "you monster, you have no ounce of goodness in you, you use the most vile means to enslave your people, death to you!" It doesn't matter that LE is 'incoherent' in a sense, if we're accepting that the arch-devil's cynical use of law is within the realm of 'Lawful Evil' as 'law is just a tool' is a true statement, then they can hate on each other to the end of time. Really the arch-devil has less issue with the elf, but his response is "OK, if you want to screw with my setup, you better be prepared to become my next slave, and you ain't gonna like it!" Yeah, I don't have a problem with your OP really either, though I will say that IME its hard to really keep conflicts going that are fueled by abstract concepts. I think you guys already talked about that a page or so back, when you talked about personal small-scale conflict. My old ranger, Cargorn, spent his whole career wiping out Demogorgon worshippers. Not because they were chaotic evil, I don't even remember what his alignment was, but it was probably also chaotic, but just because they were obnoxius buggers and they messed up his life. It was amusing too because the DM just wouldn't give up on them, he was that DM that just HAD to turn the plot his way, so every time he would add some absurd new wad of cult fanatics, demons, whatever it was to ruin our latest victory, we'd just get even madder and go after them harder. I think the whole party actually ended up killing Demogorgon but by then they were so depraved that they were almost demon lords themselves. The 'Ranger' by then had a legion of undead trees, wooden armor that held the souls of all the people who's life force his vampiric sword took, AND a vampiric ring of regeneration. If there's such a thing as an anti-ranger, he's it. But by gosh Demogorgon ain't comin' back, we stompted his arse in his own plane!</blockquote>

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