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General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Nat 20 rule. Is it immersion breaking?
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<blockquote data-quote="Blue" data-source="post: 7791769" data-attributes="member: 20564"><p>It's basically inconsequential. A 20 that's a failure is still turned into a success. It's only a 20 that's already a critical failure that won't succeed. So we're talking about a check where after all bonuses we would need to roll a 30 to succeed normally, right?</p><p></p><p>Combine that with even in that rare case, it only matters the 1/20th of the time when someone rolls a 20.</p><p></p><p>So this isn't going to come up very often at all. (Though I am a bit recalibrated to 5e's Bounded Accuracy, so it's not totally out of the picture as I was originally thinking.) But still, it's impact on most sessions will be nothing, and it may only come up a few times in a whole campaign for the players.</p><p></p><p>For "adventure shaming": I was originally thinking from the PC viewpoint as my examples showed. Any situation that requires a 20 (or worse yet - lots of 20s) to be the only solution, the DM or adventure has let us down. You brought up the valid counter-example of foes, which I have to say is a good point.</p><p></p><p>Still not a fan of even massed foes that only succeed on 20s. We're talking lowest ACs in the 30s if the goblins would still critically fail on a 20. So we're talking quite powerful PCs against the same wimpy goblins.</p><p></p><p>It's a great revenge scene, but forcing it through the combat system that either ends up with inconsequential damage to the PCs or ends up being a horrible grind because of the sheer number of them. That corner case really showcases a weaknesses of the combat system. I'd suggest handling it as some sort of other challenge that will provide better pacing and risk - and therefore tension - to move forward. That's a much more successful scene then tying yourself to the combat mechanics for something so far off their intended math.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Blue, post: 7791769, member: 20564"] It's basically inconsequential. A 20 that's a failure is still turned into a success. It's only a 20 that's already a critical failure that won't succeed. So we're talking about a check where after all bonuses we would need to roll a 30 to succeed normally, right? Combine that with even in that rare case, it only matters the 1/20th of the time when someone rolls a 20. So this isn't going to come up very often at all. (Though I am a bit recalibrated to 5e's Bounded Accuracy, so it's not totally out of the picture as I was originally thinking.) But still, it's impact on most sessions will be nothing, and it may only come up a few times in a whole campaign for the players. For "adventure shaming": I was originally thinking from the PC viewpoint as my examples showed. Any situation that requires a 20 (or worse yet - lots of 20s) to be the only solution, the DM or adventure has let us down. You brought up the valid counter-example of foes, which I have to say is a good point. Still not a fan of even massed foes that only succeed on 20s. We're talking lowest ACs in the 30s if the goblins would still critically fail on a 20. So we're talking quite powerful PCs against the same wimpy goblins. It's a great revenge scene, but forcing it through the combat system that either ends up with inconsequential damage to the PCs or ends up being a horrible grind because of the sheer number of them. That corner case really showcases a weaknesses of the combat system. I'd suggest handling it as some sort of other challenge that will provide better pacing and risk - and therefore tension - to move forward. That's a much more successful scene then tying yourself to the combat mechanics for something so far off their intended math. [/QUOTE]
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Nat 20 rule. Is it immersion breaking?
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