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General Tabletop Discussion
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Natural Weapons discrepancies?
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<blockquote data-quote="Charlaquin" data-source="post: 7902628" data-attributes="member: 6779196"><p>Well, because the wolf has higher DEX and the dire wolf has higher STR. Think of it like the wolf’s Bite having Finesse while the dire-wolf’s doesn’t (or maybe it does and the dire-wolf chooses to use STR because that gives it a better attack and damage bonus.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don’t see how it’s inconsistent. A wolf’s Bite is not the same attack as a dire wolf’s Bite, which is not the same attack as a humanoid’s Unarmed Strike. It’s no more inconsistent for them to key off different abilities than it is for them to have different damage dice.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So you’re willing to accept that a wolf’s Bite is equivalent to a humanoid’s Unarmed Strike, you’re willing to accept that a wolf’s Bite has a different damage die than a humanoid’s Unarmed Strike, you’re willing to accept that a wolf’s Bite has a different damage die than a dire wolf’s Bite, you’re willing to accept that some humanoids’ Unarmed Strikes have different damage dice than other humanoids’ Unarmed Strikes (e.g. monks, tavern brawlers, etc.), AND you’re willing to accept that some humanoids’ Unarmed Strikes key off DEX instead of STR (again, monks)... But the idea that wolves’ Bites might key off DEX is a bridge too far? That seems like a very arbitrary line to draw.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It’s not even a matter of monsters not having to follow the same rules as PCs. There’s no rule being broken here. There is precedent for melee attacks, even unarmed melee attacks, that key off DEX. The wolf’s Bite attack just happens to be one such attack.</p><p></p><p>If you need a guideline to follow when designing your own monsters, here’s what the trend appears to be in the monster manual: If a monster uses a weapon, its attacks with that weapon follow the same rules as when PCs attack with the same weapon.* If a monster has an attack that uses part of its body (i.e. a “natural weapon”), that attack is unique to the creature. You can give it whatever damage die you feel is appropriate, and it keys off your choice of the creature’s STR or DEX. Humanoid monsters generally don’t have Unarmed Strike listed in their stat blocks, but in the case that you want a humanoid monster to make an Unarmed Strike, it should probably follow the same rules as when a PC makes an Unarmed Strike.</p><p></p><p>*except in the case of two-weapon fighting, which seems to be handled via Multiattack instead of the two-weapon fighting rules. This is an inconsistency that bothers me more than it probably should.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Charlaquin, post: 7902628, member: 6779196"] Well, because the wolf has higher DEX and the dire wolf has higher STR. Think of it like the wolf’s Bite having Finesse while the dire-wolf’s doesn’t (or maybe it does and the dire-wolf chooses to use STR because that gives it a better attack and damage bonus. I don’t see how it’s inconsistent. A wolf’s Bite is not the same attack as a dire wolf’s Bite, which is not the same attack as a humanoid’s Unarmed Strike. It’s no more inconsistent for them to key off different abilities than it is for them to have different damage dice. So you’re willing to accept that a wolf’s Bite is equivalent to a humanoid’s Unarmed Strike, you’re willing to accept that a wolf’s Bite has a different damage die than a humanoid’s Unarmed Strike, you’re willing to accept that a wolf’s Bite has a different damage die than a dire wolf’s Bite, you’re willing to accept that some humanoids’ Unarmed Strikes have different damage dice than other humanoids’ Unarmed Strikes (e.g. monks, tavern brawlers, etc.), AND you’re willing to accept that some humanoids’ Unarmed Strikes key off DEX instead of STR (again, monks)... But the idea that wolves’ Bites might key off DEX is a bridge too far? That seems like a very arbitrary line to draw. It’s not even a matter of monsters not having to follow the same rules as PCs. There’s no rule being broken here. There is precedent for melee attacks, even unarmed melee attacks, that key off DEX. The wolf’s Bite attack just happens to be one such attack. If you need a guideline to follow when designing your own monsters, here’s what the trend appears to be in the monster manual: If a monster uses a weapon, its attacks with that weapon follow the same rules as when PCs attack with the same weapon.* If a monster has an attack that uses part of its body (i.e. a “natural weapon”), that attack is unique to the creature. You can give it whatever damage die you feel is appropriate, and it keys off your choice of the creature’s STR or DEX. Humanoid monsters generally don’t have Unarmed Strike listed in their stat blocks, but in the case that you want a humanoid monster to make an Unarmed Strike, it should probably follow the same rules as when a PC makes an Unarmed Strike. *except in the case of two-weapon fighting, which seems to be handled via Multiattack instead of the two-weapon fighting rules. This is an inconsistency that bothers me more than it probably should. [/QUOTE]
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