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Nature Clerics vs. Druids?
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8111540" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>Um...no. To not suck, you simply had to do the thing. That was one of 4e's design goals. If you want to be an AWESOME two-weapon attacker, sure, it benefits you to choose a class that does better at that. But that's true of everything--including 2e, 3e, and, yes, 5e. Two-weapon fighting sucks for most 5e Fighter-like classes! That is, Fighter and Barbarian usually avoid it (the former because 1 extra attack isn't worth after the early levels, once you can attack multiple times with a two-hand weapon; the latter because Brutal Critical wants big dice), and while Paladin doesn't <em>mind</em> it, neither it nor Barbarian gets Two-Weapon Fighting style so it's heavily weakened. Only Ranger is in "not suck" territory. Interesting, no?</p><p></p><p>If you make "be the BEST [foo] user" your requirement, that's on <em>you</em>. 4e isn't at fault if <em>you</em> decide that the minimum floor of acceptability isn't "competence" but rather "excellence." Using two weapons is entirely competent in 4e, and can add some useful versatility. Getting something like Tempest Fighter or Twin Strike rises above competence, but being able to get better than "reasonably effective" doesn't suddenly make "reasonably effective" mean "trash."</p><p></p><p></p><p>Doesn't adding shadow magic mean adding a bunch of new spells that are about shadow? How is that different from designing a new build or subclass (which is usually just a single feature in 4e!) and then putting some extra Wizard shadow spells in?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8111540, member: 6790260"] Um...no. To not suck, you simply had to do the thing. That was one of 4e's design goals. If you want to be an AWESOME two-weapon attacker, sure, it benefits you to choose a class that does better at that. But that's true of everything--including 2e, 3e, and, yes, 5e. Two-weapon fighting sucks for most 5e Fighter-like classes! That is, Fighter and Barbarian usually avoid it (the former because 1 extra attack isn't worth after the early levels, once you can attack multiple times with a two-hand weapon; the latter because Brutal Critical wants big dice), and while Paladin doesn't [I]mind[/I] it, neither it nor Barbarian gets Two-Weapon Fighting style so it's heavily weakened. Only Ranger is in "not suck" territory. Interesting, no? If you make "be the BEST [foo] user" your requirement, that's on [I]you[/I]. 4e isn't at fault if [I]you[/I] decide that the minimum floor of acceptability isn't "competence" but rather "excellence." Using two weapons is entirely competent in 4e, and can add some useful versatility. Getting something like Tempest Fighter or Twin Strike rises above competence, but being able to get better than "reasonably effective" doesn't suddenly make "reasonably effective" mean "trash." Doesn't adding shadow magic mean adding a bunch of new spells that are about shadow? How is that different from designing a new build or subclass (which is usually just a single feature in 4e!) and then putting some extra Wizard shadow spells in? [/QUOTE]
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