Necromancy and AL

[Byakugan]

This is the land of Barovia. A literal land of undead. People see more weird stuff happen in a day than regular Forgotten Realms people do in a year. No, I'm not that worried. No, it doesn't force a DM into a corner.

Barovia is full of undead...that constantly terrorize and kill people. It would end up about the same as if a guy was walking through town shooting guns at random targets. Most people would flee, while the ones who can fight are probably going to put him down ASAP and ask questions later.

I'll probably be dealing with this issue soon as I have a table with 2 necromancers both of which have Dark Gifts already. There are a shitload of LG people and paladin in this plane. Also, the highest charisma score in the party is a 12. Ouch!

 

[skerritthegreen]

This is the land of Barovia. A literal land of undead. People see more weird stuff happen in a day than regular Forgotten Realms people do in a year. No, I'm not that worried. No, it doesn't force a DM into a corner.

Actually, that's not exactly true. Barovia, and more domains in Ravenloft, is a lot more about horrors lurking outside of your vision. Its what you don't know that is scary. If you do see the monster either you are dead, or rarely if you are lucky you rally the entire village and burn it. Most people (that are still alive) do not regularly witness monsters, at least not enough to become inured to it. People in the Realms do see magic every day and do see different races every day. In Barovia, 90+% of folks are human and they don't work magic. I would have no issue from an RP stance (not a facilitating play stance however) if a DM had the village rise up if you force a gaggle of undead down their throat and force them to look at them.

 

[RulesJD]

Actually, that's not exactly true. Barovia, and more domains in Ravenloft, is a lot more about horrors lurking outside of your vision. Its what you don't know that is scary. If you do see the monster either you are dead, or rarely if you are lucky you rally the entire village and burn it. Most people (that are still alive) do not regularly witness monsters, at least not enough to become inured to it. People in the Realms do see magic every day and do see different races every day. In Barovia, 90+% of folks are human and they don't work magic. I would have no issue from an RP stance (not a facilitating play stance however) if a DM had the village rise up if you force a gaggle of undead down their throat and force them to look at them.

A few problems with your statements:

1. Barovian people see dead/undead literally every night at midnight from the procession that happens from the graveyard. So yes, they do see weird things involve ghost/undead every night.

2. I forget the exact number, but the expeditions that were just released and I believe even the CoS book acknowledge that something like 90% of the people in Barovia don't even have souls. So no, I'm not too worried about them getting too scared.

3. Just walking along the trails between towns you encounter all sorts of undead creatures. Random people appearing to be hanging from a noose where there were none before? On occasion they even look like you? Yeah, now imagine that happening every day for the last 30 years of your life.



I'm sorry you all feel this way, but until you rewrite the rules, Animate Dead is a perfectly legal AL option, otherwise there's zero point in being a Necromancer and you've de facto banned the class. If that's what AL wants to do, fine. But be upfront about it.

As an aside, I never once said I'd be strolling into towns with an undead horde. I was asking for advice on handling the mechanics of minionmancy without disrupting the table. Thank you all for providing exactly zero advice on that.

 

[Pauper]

I would have no issue from an RP stance (not a facilitating play stance however) if a DM had the village rise up if you force a gaggle of undead down their throat and force them to look at them.

That's a reasonable distinction to make -- at a table where you have plenty of time to explore the RP part of the game, have the necromancer become a major obstacle to convincing the adventure's major NPCs to aid or accompany the party.

[sblock]Ireena would likely be very hesitant to assist a party that makes use of undead servants, knowing that Strahd is far and away more powerful than any party member. The Mad Mage, on the other hand, might well view a necromancer as simply one of Strahd's agents, sent to finally finish him off.[/sblock]

If time is limited, however, the DM should offer a compromise -- not force the RP consequences on the party in exchange for the player of the necromancer 'holding back' on undead generation to help keep the adventure moving -- if you only have four hours to play, it's not really fair to the rest of the party for the necromancer to take 20 minutes to maneuver and resolve attacks for all his undead minions on each of his turns.

I'm curious, though: if the player of the necromancer PC refuses to accept this compromise, what are the DMs options? Refuse to seat the player until he either agrees or chooses a different character? Add monsters to encounters solely for the purpose of whittling down the necromancer's horde, having them flee once the undead are destroyed? Have Strahd show up during a long rest to either destroy the undead or take control of them and send them into Castle Ravenloft?

I'm all for facilitating play by having the DM come to agreements with her players on how best to keep the adventure moving and interesting for the whole table, but we've all been at that table where 'that one guy' just doesn't want to play along. What do you do about him?

--
Pauper

 

[skerritthegreen]

A few problems with your statements:

1. Barovian people see dead/undead literally every night at midnight from the procession that happens from the graveyard. So yes, they do see weird things involve ghost/undead every night.

2. I forget the exact number, but the expeditions that were just released and I believe even the CoS book acknowledge that something like 90% of the people in Barovia don't even have souls. So no, I'm not too worried about them getting too scared.

3. Just walking along the trails between towns you encounter all sorts of undead creatures. Random people appearing to be hanging from a noose where there were none before? On occasion they even look like you? Yeah, now imagine that happening every day for the last 30 years of your life.



I'm sorry you all feel this way, but until you rewrite the rules, Animate Dead is a perfectly legal AL option, otherwise there's zero point in being a Necromancer and you've de facto banned the class. If that's what AL wants to do, fine. But be upfront about it.

As an aside, I never once said I'd be strolling into towns with an undead horde. I was asking for advice on handling the mechanics of minionmancy without disrupting the table. Thank you all for providing exactly zero advice on that.

1. No one (besides the very brave, very dangerous, or very dumb) leaves their houses at night. They lock their doors and shutter their windows and hide.

2. While the soulless are less emotional, it doesn't mean that superstitious villagers still wouldn't have a problem with a bunch of undead hanging around. If that happened. I say this not because I think its a huge issue, I just disagree that a Gothic setting has undead regularly interacting with average people (as opposed to adventurers). Commoners on Toril definitely see more unusual sights that he/she knows about everyday than a commoner in Barovia (who might see signs or superstition regularly, but likely doesn't cross paths with magic or monsters regularly).

3. Common people who encounter undead pretty much usually die, as opposed to living for 30 years.

4. A Necromancer is a perfectly legal option and is completely fine. I have no issue with it. You are welcome to play it. My only point was that in a Gothic setting normal NPCs are not seeing/interacting with the undead regularly. Its on the edge of their sight. Its about fear of the unknown, not survival horror or subjugating them to be servants on such a regular basis that random people see nothing wrong with it/are used to it.

I am all for you playing a necromancer. Its a cool choice. I applaud your efforts to make it less of a hassle to the DM. I think you are reading more malice into my post than there is.

 

[CapnZapp]

I'm sorry you all feel this way, but until you rewrite the rules, Animate Dead is a perfectly legal AL option, otherwise there's zero point in being a Necromancer and you've de facto banned the class. If that's what AL wants to do, fine. But be upfront about it.

It's a perfectly legal option with a non zero risk of perfectly legal limitations that just might ruin your fun.

Don't play one if you don't want to deal with sometimes being restricted by a local DM. Don't play one if you need to know what you can and can't do beforehand.

The AL hasn't banned the class. Nor should they do so.

The answers you're getting only mean that if you want to play a concept that always work at peak efficiency, choose something else.

 

[kalani]

DMs are under no obligation to honor any undead created at a different table - as the DM has no way of verifying the players access to corpses; whether any undead were injured/destroyed; whether the PC lost control over any undead; etc. With so many factors that the DM has no way of verifying, the DM is free to say - you start the adventure with zero undead minions.

When it comes to resolving combats, it might be easier for the player to simply roll the attack rolls of their undead, and the DM to ask them to use average damage - as this would greatly speed up combat. If the DM is feeling generous, they can always allow players to roll damage if one of their minions rolls a crit, but I strongly recommend using average damage.

The player needs to be mindful not to hog the spotlight, and prevent other players from engaging enemies in melee. If it happens accidentally thats fine, but if the PC necromancer has so many undead that their turns take too long, and/or they are blocking other players from participating, the players and/or DM may see that as disruptive play.

 

[RulesJD]

DMs are under no obligation to honor any undead created at a different table - as the DM has no way of verifying the players access to corpses; whether any undead were injured/destroyed; whether the PC lost control over any undead; etc. With so many factors that the DM has no way of verifying, the DM is free to say - you start the adventure with zero undead minions.

When it comes to resolving combats, it might be easier for the player to simply roll the attack rolls of their undead, and the DM to ask them to use average damage - as this would greatly speed up combat. If the DM is feeling generous, they can always allow players to roll damage if one of their minions rolls a crit, but I strongly recommend using average damage.

The player needs to be mindful not to hog the spotlight, and prevent other players from engaging enemies in melee. If it happens accidentally thats fine, but if the PC necromancer has so many undead that their turns take too long, and/or they are blocking other players from participating, the players and/or DM may see that as disruptive play.

Okay so let's break this down:

1. I've already stated that I'm looking for ways to maximize efficiency at a table. Dice rolling apps pretty much solve the problem of rolling 16 d20s for at-advantage Skeleton Archers. I just give the lowest rolls until I hit, then damage totals. Boom, problem solved. Now if only someone would actually read the post I made and suggest such a dice rolling app that I can download to my phone or tablet....

Seriously, every concern you have is literally what I'm seeking advice for. Everyone immediately reacts without doing any reading comprehension because secretly they want to ban minionmancy. I'm literally going to the extent of buying skeleton minis with magnetic stackable tokens to eliminate hogging the table. What I'm seeking is advice to streamline the necromancer experience in an AL legal way.

2. Regarding not honoring undead created early. You're absolutely right. I, as a DM, also am under no obligation to honor literally anything on your character sheet that isn't class/background starting equipment or a magical item. Why? Because there are no rules for logging purchases like Plate armor, health potions, or purchased weapons. Every bow/crossbower user has 0 arrows as well. No one has mounts of any kind (unless certed of course because that what several DMs have said their policy is here).

Let's see what else doesn't get 'officially' recorded and thus DMs aren't required to carry over....

See how quickly that becomes absurd?

Even on the official adventurer's log there is a Notes section. So simply have players record spell effects in that Notes section and poof, problem solved. Drop a bajillion gold on making a Secret Chest (which I know you've done) or a Clone? You get treated the same as someone that drops 1,500gp on their set of Plate armor.

Honestly, this is the most minor of concerns because within the first combat or two the problem will generally solve itself. Needs to be humanoid corpses/bones of course but that generally hasn't been a problem so far. If anything it's more of a spell slot management problem than anything else.

We've already gone over this earlier in the thread. AL should either put out explicit guidelines if DMs want to have such table variation (which is largely the purpose of AL, to reduce that when it becomes an issue ala restriction races, source books, spells, etc.), or inform DMs of the general guidelines for having multiple creatures under a player's control for longer than something like a conjuration spell.

 

[CapnZapp]

See how quickly that becomes absurd?

The only thing I find absurd is you arguing with the AL admins.

Why don't you simply accept that the decision you've been given, that minions might not carry over from table to table, is neither absurd nor a ban on the concept.

And instead conclude that if you cannot accept how this is explicitly left up to the individual DM, and thus you won't get any advance notice; it's time to play something else.

Cheers

 

[RulesJD]

The only thing I find absurd is you arguing with the AL admins.

Why don't you simply accept that the decision you've been given, that minions might not carry over from table to table, is neither absurd nor a ban on the concept.

And instead conclude that if you cannot accept how this is explicitly left up to the individual DM, and thus you won't get any advance notice; it's time to play something else.

Cheers

Because that's not how improvements to a gaming system get made? Because pointing out the hypocrisy of being against one thing (recording skeletons) that is functionally the exact equivalent of another thing (recording PHB equipment) might make someone realize their thinking might be incorrect?

Seriously, if you feel that not questioning something is the best method of making for a better system, well, not really sure what else to say.

 

[KahlessNestor]

Plate armor or a horse are hardly as game breaking as a horde of zombies. ..

 

[kalani]

I am not an admin - but I am relaying /paraphrasing the official response that has been said about minions since season 1.

Regarding Equipment: Bad analogy as equipment purchases should be tracked on your logsheet since there is a GP cost. It is only a slight adjustment to actually record the specific purchases in your notes section.

You are correct however, that I cannot actually verify anything written in the notes section without physical proof. Fortunately, equipment is verifiable simply by looking in the PHB (or the relevant adventure in the case of unusual equipment such as cold-weather gear).

This is an honor system, and it is very easy for a character to conveniently forget to update their undead on their logsheets. Even if they are diligent however, a DM still has no way of verifying the notes - and as such can ignore them or allow them as they see fit.

Note that I didn't say that you will always start an adventure with zero minions, only that a DM might ask this of you. The same also applies in respect to simulacrum and other similar spells. Heck, even Leomund's secret chest is subject to DM adjudication (as they have no way of verifying how long since you last cast the spell). While I have never had a problem, I also make a habit of recasting LSC whenever we are fast-travelling (s)uch as journeys described as being 3 days between locations for example) by saying "During the first day of travel, I memorize LSC and cast it at the start of the day".

If I cast simulacrum however, I should expect that the spell will only last for the duration of the current adventure. If I adventure with the same DM, they will most likely allow me to keep it from adventure to adventure. If however, I go to a different table - I cannot expect them to honor anything which happened in another adventure which cannot be 100% verifiable (such as looking it up in a book and seeing a printed value).

YMMV. You might never run into a DM who asks you to reset your undead count to zero. You might run into it frequently; and if you cannot accept the fact that table-variation is inherent to minionmancy, you probably shouldn't be playing a minionmancer.

 

[Cascade]

Okay so let's break this down:

1. I've already stated that I'm looking for ways to maximize efficiency at a table. Dice rolling apps pretty much solve the problem of rolling 16 d20s for at-advantage Skeleton Archers. .

I am all for allowing players to expand various role bending play styles and concepts, however having one show up with 8+ additional 5 foot spaces of actions would even stress my open play patience.

There are simply limits. For example; I had a player show up with a deck of cards and was doing fortunes and using cards as a role play aspect with his spell casting. It was entertaining, for a while, however there came a point where the game slowed and I asked for time reasons and finishing, we condense his style to move along. He seemed fine, he had some fun, as did the table and we moved along.

I can appreciate your openness to come looking for ways and means to reduce the real world time to accommodate your desired style, however as the thread has moved along, you seem to be looking more for validation to impose your style without restriction.

The admins said, have fun and enjoy.

There will be table variation and you should incorporate that into the concept or you may find it far to frustrating to sometimes play with mittens on...

 

[RulesJD]

I am not an admin - but I am relaying /paraphrasing the official response that has been said about minions since season 1.

Regarding Equipment: Bad analogy as equipment purchases should be tracked on your logsheet since there is a GP cost. It is only a slight adjustment to actually record the specific purchases in your notes section.

You are correct however, that I cannot actually verify anything written in the notes section without physical proof. Fortunately, equipment is verifiable simply by looking in the PHB (or the relevant adventure in the case of unusual equipment such as cold-weather gear).

This is an honor system, and it is very easy for a character to conveniently forget to update their undead on their logsheets. Even if they are diligent however, a DM still has no way of verifying the notes - and as such can ignore them or allow them as they see fit.

Note that I didn't say that you will always start an adventure with zero minions, only that a DM might ask this of you. The same also applies in respect to simulacrum and other similar spells. Heck, even Leomund's secret chest is subject to DM adjudication (as they have no way of verifying how long since you last cast the spell).
*snip*

That's actually not true anymore since the latest ruling for CoS addendums. It's actually adds for an interesting method of tracking "time" based spells/effects.

The use of realtime for the Dark Gifts suddenly makes it very easy. Just look at the actual date when your character last recorded casting (and spending the GP just like you would for any other piece of equipment) of LSC, and check the realtime number of days. Poof, problem solved using an existing rule that's already been established by AL (and frankly has the added benefit of encouraging players to play more).

Your argument against comparing equipment vs. spell effects doesn't really make sense. The gold costs of the spells is literally in the PHB as well for any spell that consumes/requires an expensive component that can't be replaced by a focus/component pouch. Spend 300gp on a diamond for Raise Dead? Literally the same as spending 300gp on 6 health potions. Spend 1500gp on a ruby for a Simulacrum (time doesn't matter either which makes it even easier to track)? Track that too. If a DM kills one, just have the player note it on their AL Logsheet. Just like marking down reductions in AC to a player's armor from a Gelatinous Cube, etc.

 

[RulesJD]

*snip*

however having one show up with 8+ additional 5 foot spaces of actions would even stress my open play patience.

*snip*

I can appreciate your openness to come looking for ways and means to reduce the real world time to accommodate your desired style, however as the thread has moved along, you seem to be looking more for validation to impose your style without restriction.

To quote myself:
"1. Magnetic tokens. I'm thinking those ones that are about the size of a nickel. Plan is to have 2 Skeletons minis and then stack tokens underneath to represent more than 1 Skeleton. Should be helpful for grid combat with the horde."

My post literally asked for advice on how to reduce the impact of having 8+ skeleton minis on a board. 1 Skeleton mini + 7 tokens underneath = almost the exact same size on a grid as a Huge creature, which no one seems to complain about. Alternatively, 2 Skeletons + 3 tokens underneath each = 2 large creatures (2 blocks for 4 grids each). I take a grand total of 9 grid squares either way, the same as a Polymorphed Giant Ape, certain mounts, many enemies, etc.

Again, I can't stress this enough, I'm not looking for validation as it's already been provided that Necromancy Wizards + Animate Dead is not banned by AL. What I'm seeking is advice on how to reduce the impact of that combo in AL games, be it through the use of physical systems (tokens, dice rolling apps, etc) or roleplaying systems (having the minions bury themselves outside of town if I can't store them elsewhere so if I can't reassert control they are simply stuck underground, using a bag of bones, etc.).

And yeah, maybe, just maybe, having AL issue either some clarification or at least shift the conversation to the idea that letting players use Necromancy isn't inherently a bad thing.

 

[kalani]

That's actually not true anymore since the latest ruling for CoS addendums. It's actually adds for an interesting method of tracking "time" based spells/effects.

The use of realtime for the Dark Gifts suddenly makes it very easy. Just look at the actual date when your character last recorded casting (and spending the GP just like you would for any other piece of equipment) of LSC, and check the realtime number of days. Poof, problem solved using an existing rule that's already been established by AL (and frankly has the added benefit of encouraging players to play more).

Your argument against comparing equipment vs. spell effects doesn't really make sense. The gold costs of the spells is literally in the PHB as well for any spell that consumes/requires an expensive component that can't be replaced by a focus/component pouch. Spend 300gp on a diamond for Raise Dead? Literally the same as spending 300gp on 6 health potions. Spend 1500gp on a ruby for a Simulacrum (time doesn't matter either which makes it even easier to track)? Track that too. If a DM kills one, just have the player note it on their AL Logsheet. Just like marking down reductions in AC to a player's armor from a Gelatinous Cube, etc.

The amendments document does set an interesting and creative precedent which could be adapted for spells such as this. However, unless the admins release a FAQ making this official - it would still be subject to table variation.

Its not the cost of these spells that is the issue. It is the things that happen to the minion after the spell is cast which are impossible to verify. As constructs, simulacrum cannot be healed by most healing spells, and specifically cannot regain expended spell slots. How can a DM verify how many HPs the simulacrum lost in a previous adventure? Unless they were physically present, they have no way of verifying anything the player writes on their logsheet regarding the simulacrum's current HPs and spell slots.

As such, they have no way of knowing whether the simulacrum is fresh, or whether it is in sore need of some expensive alchemical components in order to restore its HP.

The same applies in respect to animated undead (which are also difficult to heal). No entry on a logsheet can verify this information with 100% veracity, especially considering the fact that many players write very little on their logsheets as is.

 

[Cascade]

And yeah, maybe, just maybe, having AL issue either some clarification or at least shift the conversation to the idea that letting players use Necromancy isn't inherently a bad thing.

I personally can't see that happening...

This is really a "kosher" discussion.
Sure people can eat pork but that they choose not to affects the "pork business" model. You can choose to sell pork but you can't make them buy it.

What happens when a party of real people roleplay that they don't want to play with a necromancer and skeletons?
Someone has to give. The admins and rules makers simply wont pick a side and if they do, it would be to ban the necromancy stuff. It just comes down to numbers.

I can "technically" have a paladin warlock that utterly hates undead show up at a table with you and kills your undead as soon as they're summoned. I wouldn't attack you and you couldn't attack me, per no PvP interaction is accepted. I could also get temps for killing your undead and insist that its all legal and not banned. It doesn't make for a mutually accommodating group, build playstyle....

Again, you to appear to be looking for validation as you want a statement (AL issue...) that it can't be restricted when the admins are clearly saying that it can be...

Lastly, I understand your predicament. I also have a necromancer style character I'm playing but I'm just being mindful of the others players when I sit down at a table and see if they can play with him....if not I'll pick something else. It just the taboo / kosher model.

 

[RulesJD]

I personally can't see that happening...

This is really a "kosher" discussion.
Sure people can eat pork but that they choose not to affects the "pork business" model. You can choose to sell pork but you can't make them buy it.

What happens when a party of real people roleplay that they don't want to play with a necromancer and skeletons?
Someone has to give. The admins and rules makers simply wont pick a side and if they do, it would be to ban the necromancy stuff. It just comes down to numbers.

I can "technically" have a paladin warlock that utterly hates undead show up at a table with you and kills your undead as soon as they're summoned. I wouldn't attack you and you couldn't attack me, per no PvP interaction is accepted. I could also get temps for killing your undead and insist that its all legal and not banned. It doesn't make for a mutually accommodating group, build playstyle....

Again, you to appear to be looking for validation as you want a statement (AL issue...) that it can't be restricted when the admins are clearly saying that it can be...

Lastly, I understand your predicament. I also have a necromancer style character I'm playing but I'm just being mindful of the others players when I sit down at a table and see if they can play with him....if not I'll pick something else. It just the taboo / kosher model.

Wow, quite a few assumptions you're making. You absolutely cannot "technically" have a player attack another player's resources anymore than I could just go attacking your summoned Find Steed.

If a Player attacks another Player's resources without permission, that's table PVP and clearly banned. Full stop. The only other alternative is letting the player's summons also attack the aggressive player as well (although honestly now I think about it, letting a Warlock kill a minion for Temp hp isn't a bad idea...) because the description of the Undead are that they defend against aggressive attackers sans any instruction from the spellcaster.

What happens when a Dwarf with a hatred of Orcs plays with a Half-Orc player? Does everything suddenly fall apart in AL and one player has to change?

No, that's stupid. Same with characters who hate demons still somehow managing to play with Tieflings, et al. You are inventing a problem where there is none.

 

[RulesJD]

The amendments document does set an interesting and creative precedent which could be adapted for spells such as this. However, unless the admins release a FAQ making this official - it would still be subject to table variation.

Its not the cost of these spells that is the issue. It is the things that happen to the minion after the spell is cast which are impossible to verify. As constructs, simulacrum cannot be healed by most healing spells, and specifically cannot regain expended spell slots. How can a DM verify how many HPs the simulacrum lost in a previous adventure? Unless they were physically present, they have no way of verifying anything the player writes on their logsheet regarding the simulacrum's current HPs and spell slots.

As such, they have no way of knowing whether the simulacrum is fresh, or whether it is in sore need of some expensive alchemical components in order to restore its HP.

The same applies in respect to animated undead (which are also difficult to heal). No entry on a logsheet can verify this information with 100% veracity, especially considering the fact that many players write very little on their logsheets as is.

Agreed on the Simulacrum HP/Spell slots. But the same problem arises with other items players have that are perfectly AL legal such as Shield Guardians stored spell, etc. Just have the player record the Simulacrum's HP/Spell slots each session. If the player doesn't want to record it, then treat it like literally every other thing that players don't record. Either be okay with the Honor System that AL purports to operate under and trust the player, or disallow it. But then don't be surprised when you come to a table and suddenly your unrecorded purchase of Plate armor is disallowed, etc.

*edit*

Forgot to mention, it's actually much easier for tracking Undead. They can spend hit die to heal so they are generally going to start at full health.

 

[CapnZapp]

You are inventing a problem where there is none.

Excuse me for interfering, but to me it seems he's not the one with a problem.

He doesn't mind the way a Necromancer player can't expect, much less demand, to bring undead minions from one table to the next. He's not the one arguing a zombie is a possession like a horse or a sword, even as an absurd comparison...

Please understand and graciously accept that unlike horses or half-orcs, necromancy is controversial and not always appreciated at a table. That's it.