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<blockquote data-quote="Zhure" data-source="post: 8788" data-attributes="member: 308"><p>I really don't think this analysis is "highly skewed." Certainly it was designed to highlight the good qualities of the Monk. I thought that was clear from my opening statements.</p><p></p><p>I'm basing this on non-magical analysis, since the Fighter can get magic items, as can the monk. Ki straps? Monk's Belt or Belt of Giant Strength? They're all expensive but the monk's not buying magic arms or armor and will have some cash. Greater Magic Fang can grant him short-term boosts in to-hit, although only Druids have access to it.</p><p></p><p>[edit, forgot to mention...]</p><p></p><p>In fact, one could even postulate that a Monk can make better use of many magic items than can a tank Fighter. Guantlets of Dexterity don't grant much benefit to the guy in plate mail. A Periapt of Wisdom is of no great use to the Fighter, except for his Will saves and a few skills.</p><p></p><p>[end edit]</p><p>Note the monk in this example also has Power Attack. As he gets more attacks than the Fighter, he gains only a slightly smaller bonus to the less oft-hitting Fighter. His damage at +14/+9 will be 2d6+14 vs the Monk's +14/+11/+8 at 1d10+6. (The Fighter in this example -- as in the earlier one -- already was given Weapon Focus and Specialization, assuming he would take them with his primary attack; this time I gave Weapon Focus to the Monk, too). With Flurry, the Monk will do exactly the same average damage as the Fighter against the same AC, discounting criticals. </p><p></p><p>Even reconfiguring this to monkish weapons, the Monk still gets 1d6+6 for his attacks, which usually far outstrips the Ranger's best shot at TWF. Using a kama, nunchaku or siangham will let the monk add elemental damage and his average damage only goes down 2 per hit. It puts him behind the Fighter, but that's only an average difference of 8x(percentage chance to hit) off the Fighter for a full round.</p><p></p><p>These numbers all vary based on circumstance, AC of the target and critical stats for the weapon.</p><p></p><p>Elemental damage is the only real thing that gives the Fighter an edge, as there's no by-the-book method to grant this to the Monk that comes to mind, without multiclassing to Order of the Sacred Fist (which would require a level of Templar, Cleric or Druid). I'd rather leave multiclassing out of this as it obscures the issue. A monk weapon eliminates the elemental shortcoming.</p><p></p><p>While monkish weapons are rarer than fighter weapons, I don't think this is a dramatic factor, as most really powerful magic weapons are either contracted for or can be replicated with Greater Magic Weapon. Since the party Wizard seems to be a Transmuter, this shouldn't be a problem.</p><p></p><p>Monks require higher stats to be effective. I think this was already noted in my post but I'll reiterate it. Since the monk in question was granted a base STR of 20 as a half-orc, the Fighter was as well.</p><p></p><p>Constitution is a good secondary choice for both the Monk and the Fighter, meaning they will really only have a difference in hit points of 1 per level on average.</p><p></p><p>Dexterity is better for the Monk, but not required, as he can boost his AC with Bracers of Armor that the Fighter cannot really use.</p><p></p><p>Wisdom is only crucial for base AC and for his chance to stun. It's nice, but not necessary.</p><p></p><p>Charisma and Intelligence are as much dump stats for the Fighter as for the Monk. In fact, one could even say Intelligence is less important for the Monk as he gets 4 base skill points vs the Fighter's 2.</p><p></p><p>Given identical characteristics, the Monk will be close to the Fighter's combat stats, as already noted, but be behind a bit in to hit and a lot in AC (up to 5 points <em>in extrimis</em>against the greatsword wielder, but more likely only a point or two). Magic Vestment, Cat's Grace, and Mage Armor are all better used by this hypothetical Monk than the hypothetical Fighter. Note again, the party Wizard is a buffer.</p><p></p><p>The Fighter will be a better fighter than the Monk. I think everyone already realizes this. I was merely pointing out the Monk is capable of dealing large amounts of damage.</p><p></p><p>Hope that helps,</p><p>Greg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Zhure, post: 8788, member: 308"] I really don't think this analysis is "highly skewed." Certainly it was designed to highlight the good qualities of the Monk. I thought that was clear from my opening statements. I'm basing this on non-magical analysis, since the Fighter can get magic items, as can the monk. Ki straps? Monk's Belt or Belt of Giant Strength? They're all expensive but the monk's not buying magic arms or armor and will have some cash. Greater Magic Fang can grant him short-term boosts in to-hit, although only Druids have access to it. [edit, forgot to mention...] In fact, one could even postulate that a Monk can make better use of many magic items than can a tank Fighter. Guantlets of Dexterity don't grant much benefit to the guy in plate mail. A Periapt of Wisdom is of no great use to the Fighter, except for his Will saves and a few skills. [end edit] Note the monk in this example also has Power Attack. As he gets more attacks than the Fighter, he gains only a slightly smaller bonus to the less oft-hitting Fighter. His damage at +14/+9 will be 2d6+14 vs the Monk's +14/+11/+8 at 1d10+6. (The Fighter in this example -- as in the earlier one -- already was given Weapon Focus and Specialization, assuming he would take them with his primary attack; this time I gave Weapon Focus to the Monk, too). With Flurry, the Monk will do exactly the same average damage as the Fighter against the same AC, discounting criticals. Even reconfiguring this to monkish weapons, the Monk still gets 1d6+6 for his attacks, which usually far outstrips the Ranger's best shot at TWF. Using a kama, nunchaku or siangham will let the monk add elemental damage and his average damage only goes down 2 per hit. It puts him behind the Fighter, but that's only an average difference of 8x(percentage chance to hit) off the Fighter for a full round. These numbers all vary based on circumstance, AC of the target and critical stats for the weapon. Elemental damage is the only real thing that gives the Fighter an edge, as there's no by-the-book method to grant this to the Monk that comes to mind, without multiclassing to Order of the Sacred Fist (which would require a level of Templar, Cleric or Druid). I'd rather leave multiclassing out of this as it obscures the issue. A monk weapon eliminates the elemental shortcoming. While monkish weapons are rarer than fighter weapons, I don't think this is a dramatic factor, as most really powerful magic weapons are either contracted for or can be replicated with Greater Magic Weapon. Since the party Wizard seems to be a Transmuter, this shouldn't be a problem. Monks require higher stats to be effective. I think this was already noted in my post but I'll reiterate it. Since the monk in question was granted a base STR of 20 as a half-orc, the Fighter was as well. Constitution is a good secondary choice for both the Monk and the Fighter, meaning they will really only have a difference in hit points of 1 per level on average. Dexterity is better for the Monk, but not required, as he can boost his AC with Bracers of Armor that the Fighter cannot really use. Wisdom is only crucial for base AC and for his chance to stun. It's nice, but not necessary. Charisma and Intelligence are as much dump stats for the Fighter as for the Monk. In fact, one could even say Intelligence is less important for the Monk as he gets 4 base skill points vs the Fighter's 2. Given identical characteristics, the Monk will be close to the Fighter's combat stats, as already noted, but be behind a bit in to hit and a lot in AC (up to 5 points [i]in extrimis[/i]against the greatsword wielder, but more likely only a point or two). Magic Vestment, Cat's Grace, and Mage Armor are all better used by this hypothetical Monk than the hypothetical Fighter. Note again, the party Wizard is a buffer. The Fighter will be a better fighter than the Monk. I think everyone already realizes this. I was merely pointing out the Monk is capable of dealing large amounts of damage. Hope that helps, Greg [/QUOTE]
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