Need feedback on modified Ranger & Monk

[UofMDude]

Ranger

Very similar to Monte's but without the spells (and a few extra little things). Is this powerful enough when compared to the other base classes?

BAB: fighter
Saves: good Fort, Reflex - poor Will
Hit die: d8

Skills: list as Ranger - 6 + int
Spells: none

Level Special
1 Bonus Feat, Track, 1st Favored Enemy
2 Bonus Feat
3
4 Bonus Feat
5 2nd Favored Enemy
6
7
8 Bonus Feat
9 3rd Favored Enemy
10
11
12 Bonus Feat
13 4th Favored Enemy
14
15
16 Bonus Feat
17 5th Favored Enemy
18
19
20 Bonus Feat

Bonus feat from the following list: Alertness, Ambidexterity, Combat Reflexes, Dodge (Mobility, Spring Attack), Endurance, Expertise (Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Whirlwind Attack), Mounted Combat (Mounted Archery, Trample, Ride-By-Attack, Spirited Charge), Point Blank Shot (Far Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Sharp-Shooting, Shot on the Run), Quick Draw, Skill Focus - Wilderness Lore, Two-Weapon Fighting (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting), Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus

Monk

basically I took out a few things, bumped up the Ki Strike, and added a couple things from the Sacred Fist
Too powerful? Too weak? Cooler? Less cool?

Level Special
1 Unarmed Strike, evasion
2
3 Uncanny dodge (Dex bonus to AC)
4 Still mind
5 Purity of body
6 Improved Trip feat
7 Wholeness of body,
Leap of the clouds
8 Uncanny dodge (Can't be flanked)
9 Improved evasion
10 Ki strike (+1)
11 Diamond body
12 Ki strike (+2)
13 Diamond soul
14
15 Ki strike (+3)
16 Blindsight
17 Timeless body
18 Ki strike (+4)
19 Inner armor
20 Perfect self

Blindsight: This ability grants sensitivity to vibrations, scent, and acute hearing so that the monk maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. His senses extend in a 30 foot radius. Invisibility and darkness are irrelevant, though he still can't discern etheral beings. Monks do not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range.
Inner Armor: At 19th level a monk's inner tranquility protects him from external threats. He may invoke a +4 concentration bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus to all saves for a number of rounds equal to his Wisdom modifier. If his Wisdom modifier is +0 or negative, he cannot use this ability. A monk may use inner armor 5 times per day.

Thanks in advance for any comments

UofMDude

 

[Crothian]

I think the Ranger is to strong. You only get 4 less bonus feats then a fighter (only 3 if you include track). They have d8 verse d10 HP. What they gain is three times the base skillpoints, great skills, good reflex save, and favored enemy.

The monk seems okay. Blindsight is a very powerful ability, though. That's the only thing that might be too much.

 

[Ruvion]

Ranger: I do not like what Monte has done with his alt.ranger, but yours is a true improvement over his (in terms of balance IMHO). Although your ranger doesn't mesh with my idea of what a ranger should be , it is a good ranger and to be closer to a fighter than a traditional wilderness scouts. Your ranger will survive more fights than my alt.ranger, although mine will be more sneakier and thus less likely to be involved in a fight.

Monk: Cool, but I usually do not like classes with blindsight. This is 'cause I think they are too powerful (it's almost like having a continual see invisible in effect). Maybe resticting the range to 5 feet?

 

[UofMDude]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I guess I would sum up my feelings on blindsight like this:
There's a 3rd level arcane spell (Blindsight) that lasts 1 hour per level (which at 16th level would be 2/3 of the day). I know it's kind of powerful but it's only slightly more powerful than getting a single 3rd level spell slot at 16th level. But maybe I'll restrict the range. 5' is too short but maybe 15' would work out ok.

As for the ranger, I like the feel (I did alot of tweaking to try and even out the powers). I know it is probably slightly stronger than the fighter class. But I did restrict the feats (no power attack chain) and no weapon specialization (THE major benefit of being a fighter if you ask me). Unless alot of people feel its totally out of whack I'll probably leave it.

Thanks

UofMDude

 

[Dr. Zoom]

How is it compared to the other core classes? Using the Class Construction Engine, your ranger comes to 275 total CP's (character points). The other fighting classes have 245 (barbarian and fighter) and 257 (paladin). The core ranger is the "weakest" with 237. Your ranger is much more powerful than all the others, especially the core ranger.

I think the core ranger needs tweaking, but not much. I have come to believe that if you increase the spell list and progression chart, and give him a couple of abilities at 2nd and 3rd level, you have done well. The ranger I use has 256 points, almost even with the paladin.

Of course, your ranger is radically different than the core class. It looks too much like the fighter at the first 4 levels except for the d8 HD, which is not too much lower. On top of this, he has triple the skill points of a fighter and good reflex saves. It is unbalanced, IMO, for these reasons. You might want to make a prestige class that has no spells, the good reflex saves, the 6 skill points, the d8 HD, and either feats or special abilities. Call it a Scout or whatever fits your ideas.

 

[UofMDude]

Where can I find the Class Construction Engine? Is this something online? I don't remember seeing it in any DnD books.

Thanks

UofMDude

 

[Darklone]

Your monk

Sorry have no idea where the character generator thingy is, just got a copy...

Your monk is too tough. Uncanny dodge is one of the main abilities of the barbarian and the rogue and you give it to the monk... who already has some similar things (wis bonus to AC).
Blindsight: Allow him to buy that feat from the Sword&Fist and that's it.

 

[UofMDude]

I managed to google the CCE. Found it here:

www.dndworld.com/3e/classes/classconstruction.pdf

It's a well thought out document but it does have some "weirdness" to it.

For instance, everyone seems to universally hate Favored Enemy but it is considered equivalent to Uncanny Dodge.

And the Ranger's spellcasting is only a 2 point ability (10 + 12 - 10 - 10) while Track is a 5 point ability.

As far as how my classes stack up with this:

Monk:
took out Deflect Arrows (5), Slow Fall (5), Abundant Step (5), Quivering Palm (10), and Tongue (5) for a total of 30 points out

modified Ki Strike (still probably a 10)

added Blind Sight (5-10 depending on range), Uncanny Dodge (15), Perfect Armor (15, 10 if I change it)

I'll probably need to drop down the number of times Inner Armor can be used - maybe number of rounds = 2 times wisdom modifier per day? Or does inner armor not bother anyone? What do you all think?

Given the points it probably makes sense to limit blind sight to just 5' (per the feat) unless I want to take something else out. I still may need to tweak when the powers arrive though.

It's funny that monks top the CCE chart. Although this makes some sense when you consider that their skills are very top heavy (they get alot of "points" worth at high levels).

Ranger:
I see no reason why rangers should have spells. That just doesn't fit my view of a ranger.

I forgot to mention in the description that my rangers are not proficient with medium or heavy armor and that the bonus feats they get won't work in heavy armor. This would drop my Ranger down to (using Dr Zoom's numbers) a 255. Not too bad.

Fighters should really be 250, not 245 since their specialization ability doesn't cost them anything (apparently).

Thanks for the feedback. I'll have to do some more tweaking (at least with Mok, a player is using Ranger in my campaign and I don't want to change it after he's already decided to play one).

UofMDude

 

[Dr. Zoom]

I agree that the CCE is not perfect, but it does provide a good guideline for these types of changes, or for making new or prestige classes. Note that the core classes are pretty close with just a couple exceptions.

Looks like your ranger is closer to the average core class after all. I still think it looks to much like a fighter, but that is just my opinion. By all means, let your player test it out and see how it does. My rangers spell ability cost 6 points after the deductions. I think that the delayed spell deduction should really be -5 instead of -10. Then the spell ability would be more consequencial and the core ranger would be at 242.

I think Blindsight, 5 ft. radius is the way to go for your monk. I currently have a core monk in my game, and so far he is a pretty effective character. I have not altered any core class except for the ranger.

Perhaps you should consider a multiclass between fighter or barbarian and the npc expert class for your ranger. No spells and the skill flexibility of the expert. I would consider playing a class like that. I wonder what that would look like? Perhaps I will create one and post a stat block. Anyone interested?

 

[whatisitgoodfor]

Have you thought about dropping the Ranger's BAB down to Rogue level and then giving him an extra Favored enemy at level 20?

That would leave him almost directly in the middle between Fighters and Rogues. IMO a good thing, and what a Ranger should be, a wilderness Rogue.