Need Help Designing NEW Charm/Domination Rules

[Aluvial]

I have been really displeased with the new versions of the Charm Person, Charm Monster, Suggestion, Domination spells.

Essentially I don't like the fact that the spells allow a creature an out every time "he acts in a manner he is not accustomed too." Basically isn't that the point of these spells.

I would like to redesign the spells based on there spell level, keep in mind psionics, and have a way to ultimately dominate someone against there own will, to the point of killing one's own mother (or yourself) if told too.

I know the mechanics need to step up as they go along, meaning as the spell level increases, so do the effects of the charm.

What I need help with is designing the levels so that they work correctly, are fair to both PC's and NPC's/monsters, and so that a charmed creature is charmed, not just given a better attitude (although maybe that is all a 1st level spell/power should be able to do).

Any suggestions on how to start?

Aluvial

 

[Erila of Sune]

Well, this is an issue near and dear to my heart, so I'll start by trying to establish what these two very distinct spell lines attempt to do.

Charm is, as you mention, a very simple spell type at heart. It basically does just improve reactions, although to the point where victims tend to do things that would be quite out of character for their normal behavior. More advanced spells of this type would induce stronger feelings, or might be woven with suggestion effects to produce more specific reactions.

An example of advanced charm effect would be a Philter of Love

Dominate is another route to controlling the actions of another. Essentially, these spells are an attempt to outright override the will of their victim. The victim of a successful Dominate effect is essentially an automation, but the mind doesn't like being restrained like this. That makes it far easier to force someone to do something they have no particular feelings about rather than something they would object passionately to.

An example of an advanced dominate effect is the Thrall psionic power. A -10 to the saving throw to resist self-destructive action is fairly hefty by itself, then remember that the order can be repeated once per round. If you really want someone to impale themselves on their own sword, you will almost certainly succeed, and more likely sooner rather than later.

Suggestion spell effects are very straightforward. You couch a single course of action and the target will, if you succeed, believe it to be a good idea. Naturally, with weaker magics convincing someone that a certain course of action is a good idea when it's plainly not is simply not going to happen.

An example of an advanced suggestion effect would be the Sympathy spell. While limited in scope, the suggestion in this case is nigh irresistible, and can easily lure a person to their death through inattention to surroundings.

Essentially I don't like the fact that the spells allow a creature an out every time "he acts in a manner he is not accustomed too." Basically isn't that the point of these spells.

Actually, the point of the above spell lines is to make a person do what you wish them to, regardless of their own wishes, a very different goal. This is naturally a lot easier if it's something that they normally do in their everyday lives. Forcing a clerk to sign your adventuring license (a daily activity for him) is a lot easier than forcing the same clerk to assault the king in his bed. The former would never require a new save (although possibly a charisma check for a simple Charm Person might be called for if there's a really good reason for the character not to do it, say, an arrest warrant is out on the party's barbarian.) The latter is extreme enough that it would definitely require a save, and in some cases may automatically break the spell.

 

[Aluvial]

Actually, the point of the above spell lines is to make a person do what you wish them to, regardless of their own wishes, a very different goal. This is naturally a lot easier if it's something that they normally do in their everyday lives. Forcing a clerk to sign your adventuring license (a daily activity for him) is a lot easier than forcing the same clerk to assault the king in his bed. The former would never require a new save (although possibly a charisma check for a simple Charm Person might be called for if there's a really good reason for the character not to do it, say, an arrest warrant is out on the party's barbarian.) The latter is extreme enough that it would definitely require a save, and in some cases may automatically break the spell.

Thanks for responding. I like the Charisma opposed roles, but basically my issues with charming come down to some of the basics that the spell doesn't necessarily address; essentially attacking your own comrades.

What I suppose I mean is that a player can easily say that he "feels" as if his character isn't doing something that he normally would do (any lack of free-will), which is exactly that "something" that the charmer/dominator wants him to do. This allows him another save or check or freedom from the compulsion.

I know that not all of the spells work this way, but that's why I want to get the spells straightened out for my campaign so that at different spell levels, there are different (and straightforward) effects that compell a character to do things, things that at higher level spells, would not require a saving throw, or an opposed check for any reason.

Perhaps a matrix of spell caster vs. victim HD is needed to complete my request. A specific spell type or specific spell would give certain modifiers to the matrix.

At least this way, a 12th level caster could compel a (simple) kobold to turn on his own brothers, and fight against them.

Certain levels in the matrix would allow saving throws for various "I wouldn't normally do this" type commands.

What do you all think of this idea so far?

Aluvial

 

[Vrecknidj]

Why don't you just create some new spells? Greater Charm Person, Irresistable Charm Person, or whatever? Then word them the way you want, playtest until you get a decent level, and then be done?

Dave

 

[Aluvial]

Why don't you just create some new spells? Greater Charm Person, Irresistable Charm Person, or whatever? Then word them the way you want, playtest until you get a decent level, and then be done?

Dave

For whatever reason, that never even crossed my mind.

It's a good short term solution to my problem; thanks.

As for the matrix I was discussing, I'm working on the balance issues now, is it hard to post a table to these boards?

If anyone else is following this, let me know your opinions, I've not tampered with the rules this way before and could use the help.

Aluvial