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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Zephyrus" data-source="post: 2654908" data-attributes="member: 8728">Okay,.. I appologize for MY error.. the descriptive text for the Summon Monster spells (the part about it appearing and acting immdiatly on your turn) has always been to me the creature appeared and acted right after you cast the spell instead of the round following (why else use language such as immediatly, why not it doesnt appear until the start of your next action? then again it appears I'm running into alot of wordings that seem needlessly spark debate). I agree about Familiars as they are needlessly Undervalued. I've created my own Summoner varient Core Class where I included an improved familiar benefit as well though in my version I give them the Improved/Planner Familiar feat as a bonus feat and treat them as +2 levels better for the purpose of what familiars can be attained. this allows for a better familiar without having to go into alot of details on ways to improve them. Celestial/Fiendish versions of a familiar are Level Req. 3+ thus even at 1st level with this ability they could get the template improved version or wait to get an Imp or or Psudodragon.Yeah, the 3.5 Augment Summoning (asside from getting Spell Focus [Conjuration] as a prereq.) became a flat +4 STR and +4 CON. This also can be said to have several other famifications as improved ability scores trickle down into numerous other things such as Fort Saves, Skill Checks, Grapple Bonus etc.. If you insist on persuing that route I'd suggest maybe that you improve the Augment Summoning Feat to +6 and then +8 at certain levels (say, 3rd or 4th, and then again like 4 levels later). That would allow that level to have a stand alone ability and spread your special abilities over the levels a bit better. This keeps it simple as well as provides nice platues of power (also keeps the ability improvements at nice even increments).---Summoners are perhaps one of the hardest of the specialty casters to find nice classes for PC's for because in many games the players are acting as hero's and many summoner sterotypes are Demon summoning or Undead Summoning or similar and its much harder to find a good foundation for Heroic summoners (unless you figure Final Fantasy, but thats a whole can of worms I'd rather not open). This is made a little worse by many people envision summoners as Arcane but the Planer Ally spells are Divine and also require bargining (making it less useful in combat situations unless its been arranged before hand and is more open to DM whimsy as to weather the called Ally will work cheep).  As I mentioned Arcana Unearthed had some nice Varient Conjurer specialist rules to make for good Summoners but I dont think theirs much else out their if your looking for a Arcane Heroic (Good guy) summoner type.</blockquote>

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