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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9242600" data-attributes="member: 7030563">The original hypothesis that I was responding to is that Magic Users were weaker at lower levels, but more powerful than fighters at higher levels because they could cast high level spells that bypassed saving throws.&nbsp; With the exception of I think Death Spell, those spells are all 8th and 9th level spells (at least the effective ones are).I believe Death Spell is 7th level and bypassed saves, but it was only effective on enemies up to 8th level I believe, making it good but not great at a level where a Fighter can routinely and easily down an 8th level foe in 2 rounds.If the argument about Magic-User power and balance rests on the idea that they are more powerful than fighters at high level specifically because they can cast good high level spells, then the likelihood of having a high-enough intelligence to cast them, and being lucky enough to get them into your book is extremely relevant to the discussion.If your argument is not that then what is it?To clarify; objectively weaker as not as strong, not as powerful considering the combat mechanics, class mechanics and probabilities with randomly generated characters of each class using the rules.I would agree with you that who would win a 1v1 battle is not relevant to game play but is relevant to this thread and the discussion of which class is more &quot;powerful&quot;.&nbsp; It is specifically the metric I am using to determine which class is more powerful.If we are using that metric, what I stated above is objectively true.&nbsp;If we are not using that metric for class power then what metric are we using?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 9242600, member: 7030563"] The original hypothesis that I was responding to is that Magic Users were weaker at lower levels, but more powerful than fighters at higher levels because they could cast high level spells that bypassed saving throws. With the exception of I think Death Spell, those spells are all 8th and 9th level spells (at least the effective ones are). I believe Death Spell is 7th level and bypassed saves, but it was only effective on enemies up to 8th level I believe, making it good but not great at a level where a Fighter can routinely and easily down an 8th level foe in 2 rounds. If the argument about Magic-User power and balance rests on the idea that they are [U]more[/U] powerful than fighters at high level specifically because they can cast good high level spells, then the likelihood of having a high-enough intelligence to cast them, and being lucky enough to get them into your book is extremely relevant to the discussion. If your argument is not that then what is it? To clarify; objectively weaker as not as strong, not as powerful considering the combat mechanics, class mechanics and probabilities with randomly generated characters of each class using the rules. I would agree with you that who would win a 1v1 battle is not relevant to game play but is relevant to this thread and the discussion of which class is more "powerful". It is specifically the metric I am using to determine which class is more powerful. If we are using that metric, what I stated above is objectively true. If we are not using that metric for class power then what metric are we using? [/QUOTE]

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