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Message: <blockquote data-quote="totoro" data-source="post: 1071528" data-attributes="member: 11939">Taking the damage spells one at a time:Shocking Grasp:  At 6th level, you can do as much damage as a 6th level fighter (5d6 damage is roughly the amount of damage you can expect a 6th level fighter to do with a greatsword--2d6+6(STR)+2(specialization)+2(magic weapon).  The wizard gets +3 if the target is metal, but the BAB of a 6th level fighter is 3 better than that of a 6th level wizard.  And the fighter will be able to take the counterstrike better.  So, I don't think Shocking Grasp is all that great for a wizard, unless you start taking other spells and effects into account.  Of course, you do have other spells you can use when you are not competing with the fighter in dealing damage, but on the round you use shocking grasp, you are only equalling, not exceeding, the fighter in damage.Burning Hands is only slightly better at 6th level.  You can do 5d4 damage to multiple opponents, but they all get saves for half damage (reflex saves, so they might even take no damage).  The fighter can probably do twice as much damage to a single opponent, so burning hands is better if you can get 3 targets to politely line up for their scorching.  Relatively rare.  Not a bad spell, but at 6th level, it is already starting to pale in comparison to the fighter.Magic Missile is one of the better first level spells for damage dealing because it continues to grow in damage.  However, at 6th level, you are doing an average of 10.5 damage with the spell.  Fighters do twice that (or, if you assume the fighters miss half the time, the same amount of damage).  Again, you are using one of your valuable spells to equal, but not exceed, the damage dealing of the fighter.In short, all of the wizard's first level damage spells allow them to compete with the fighter for damage from 1st (actually, they are quite a bit weaker at 1st and 2nd level) to 6th levels.  Then, they start to be relatively insignificant.  I'm not saying a 9th level wizard can't be a big help when throwing his 5 magic missiles, but if you compare that to what the fighter can do, it is at best equal, probably a little less, and in any case only a one shot deal.What the fighter cannot do very well is silence a couple of guards before they can make noise (a rogue might be able to take out one with relative confidence, but two is pushing it).  Sleep can help you there and continues to help with large numbers of low level guards no matter what level you reach (well, at least the spell as I wrote it does; the nerfed one only gets 4HD).  In any case, it has been reduced in effectiveness once combat has begun, but is still not on par with a Cantrip.</blockquote>

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