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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aelryinth" data-source="post: 8096806" data-attributes="member: 10515">You are once again missing the forest for the trees.A barbaric savage orc tribe won't have alchemists because they are barbaric savages without education, the same way they won't have a chemist or physicist or likely a wizard. I used BARBARIC and SAVAGE for a reason. Alchemy is a civilized thing.Now, if MY ORCS ARE DIFFERENT, that's fine, but I'm using a trope, and you're trying to change the trope. Savage, uneducated tribes of humanoids won't have alchemy and gunpowder, any more then viking raiders did. Low tech, low education, no production.PC's can figure out all kinds of ways to throw the kegs.Treat hits the burning keg, it explodes and blows up. Not a solution.Substitute fireball for kegs in your killing treants and elves, and you can see you missed the point again. Dead foes don't know how to guard against stuff. You are instantly turning it into DM Fiat arbitrary consequences. Those 'examples' are meta-game events which would occur if you were killing treants and elves, they have nothing to do with using gunpowder to do so, so you're making false examples.Fiends don't have alchemy skills, and most of them are brutes, not clever masterminds. They don't have the mindset to use such crutches. -- There, see, I shot down your false example as easily as you set it up. I've never seen a fiend using gunpowder or guns, even though both are available in Pathfinder, and presumably in the Abyss. Not reliable against other fiends is my guess... plus Fiends don't normally have Alchemy to make the stuff.Arbitrary 'this don't work' is arbitrary. You're talking a trained and experienced alchemist, not a medieval chemist. The stuff works, and works reliably. You might as well implement rules for 10% spell miscasts because medieval, and Weapon Breaks on 1 because Medieval, then.SOME undead are intelligent. MOST undead never used guns or gunpowder, and don't have the alchemy to make it. Go look at the stat blocks. Not every undead is a lich or vampire, and unless they died as gunmen, they aren't proficient in using gunpowder weapons, either. You are once again ALTERING THE GAME to stop gunpowder use. It's also a trope that undead don't really learn new stuff. They are dead, after all. Even the vampires cling to the pageantry of their time, and don't adjust to new eras.DM Fiat: Now kegs don't work like the game says. Oooookay.90%+ of the enemies PC's fight don't have the wherewithal to send assassins or teleporting mages, and the latter is a VERY high level ploy. Again, the argument has nothing to do with gunpowder, it just has to do with violent PC's and consequences. Substitute 'fireball' for gunpowder, or 'chopping greatsword' in the hands of a skilled fighter, and your 'argument' is the exact same thing - a DM Fiat metagamey thing.If the high level elven druid wants to send in water elementals or drown a city, gunpowder has crap to do with that, too.If the orcs and goblins want to get alchemy in the future, that doesn't help them NOW, when the PC's are killing them. "After the end of the campaign, the goblins and orcs realize they can't be barbarians anymore, and start settling in and developing an education system and technology, stealing what they can, and in a generation or three, start making stuff of their own" doesn't help right now.Metagamey DM Fiat is Metagamey DM Fiat that has nothing to do with actually using gunpowder now.</blockquote>

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