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Message: <blockquote data-quote="bert1000" data-source="post: 5147978" data-attributes="member: 29013">Morrus, I'm a big fan of skill challenges (although I prefer a looser Obsidian style execution). I'm also a big fan of WoTBS. However, 4e WoTBS skill challenges have frankly been pretty bad so far. It's not in the mechanical set up (skill uses, etc.) which is ok, but the reason they have been poor IMO is the stakes. The consequences for success and failure have been trivial. Good skill challenges are not just a different means to the same end, but have emotional impact on the PCs and players, and consequences that are permanent (but of course not game ending). My thoughts are that every skill challenge should have a permanent story consequence.  For instance, in Shelter from the Storm there are a few travel skill challenges that result in loss of healing surges for failure and a combat that results before rest. So what? Unless that combat will result in the probable death of a PC because of the healing surge losses then it is just "a different means to the same end".  IMO, good stakes for a travel skill challenge would be something like: You need to quickly travel through the mountains to reach the village so you can join in the defense before the orcs attack. Success: "The PCs reach the village in time to help defend and there is a chance the village is saved". Failure: "The PCs are too late and the village is burned to the ground". Or "The PCs are too late and the village is already under attack with an NPC the PCs' like killed already".  In this example, the players (assuming they had some stake in the village) would actually care if they succeeded on the skill challenge. And it doesn't derail the adventure -- if they fail, now the PCs are even more invested in tracking down these orcs and avenging the loss. WoTBS (and many WOTC) skill challenges don't have meaningful stakes/ consequences to success and failure. Here's a thread discussing this further:<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/273837-good-rewards-penalties-winning-losing-skill-challenge.html" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/273837-good-rewards-penalties-winning-losing-skill-challenge.html</a> So, I guess what I am saying is please keep skill challenges but try to make them a meaningful part of the story.  SC-Seaquen-3 — Rat Search is better in this regard. There are story consequences. I would take this one level further on failure: The fires continue and the violence increases, but also come up with some scene that makes it clear to the PCs that their failure led to X being killed in the violence, etc. Or perhaps Lorb loses power because he was "ineffectual in dealing with this arson business", and that has consequences later when... Almost all RPGs assume that you can always continue playing if the DM and players want to: either you get resurrected, roll up new characters, etc. And combat is set up so that the PCs win. In this framework, the ability for PCs to not obtain some of their goals is priceless. I would love to see this philosophy incorporated into the new AP as well as the remaining 4e WoTBS modules. Thanks for listening!</blockquote>

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