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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Goonalan" data-source="post: 5301875" data-attributes="member: 16069">I am indeed however, the next scenario we played through was Goodman Games DCC53 Sellswords of Punjar, see sig for link, I want to share this one with you as it proves to be... deadlier, shall we say, than KOTS.Back to KOTS-What can I say from the stats conjured previous-First off it's surprising how easy players who have never played 4e, or any roleplaying games for that matter (save one of them), slip into the roles. Perhaps this is a distialltion of fantasy figures presented in the mass media- the players have all seen Lord of the Rings (Edit- After making this statement I have now learnt that one of the players, Paul (Winstanlety, has never seen Lord of the Rings all the way through)  they therefore already know which roles they will play in the adventure- pick Dwarf Fighter to be Gimli etc.That said we spent maybe 30 minutes to an hour before the first session talking about the mechanics of the game- mostly (90%) combat, in game the players seemed to grasp their roles from the off. 4th Edition has become more brazen, telling players what part they will play- Gimli, you're the Defender- heavy armour, immovable, you can take more damage than anyone else...So the first thing to say is the naming of the roles- Defender, Striker et al proved to be helpful for my players, the fact that each has some part to play in the whole, and that integrated the sum became greater than the parts was quickly apparent.If I do this then... you do that... yes, combat is a little like multiplayer chess but with the right scene setting, and language then it can come alive.And so in our merry band-Dirty, Dwarven Fighter = Defender, took more hits than any other player, always in the front of the charge, and fearless with his weighty stash of Healing Surges.Winstanley, Halfling Rogue = Striker, flirted with danger constantly and always found a way to gain combat advantage, and to get out of the way when the going got tough.Kaspard, Half-Elf Cleric = Leader, stayed at the back, a laser-Cleric who sacrificed a little of her potential glory, to keep the others alive; and unless Undead strayed onto the field kept away from the fracas.Grey, Human Wizard = Controller, this one for me is a little bit of a misnomer, yes the Wizard can control the battlefield but a better description for Grey is the Artillery- as far away from the action as he can get while still within range of his fiery powers. Controller doesn't begin to describe Grey, not enough menace and promise of flaming retribution.Phrenic, Tiefling Warlord = Leader, another one slightly at odds, although perfectly apt- James who played Phrenic (and McGyver before Phrenic) is the only one of the players to have played RPGs and D&D in particular previously. In game however he served as the second Defender, and suffered for it- perhaps this again only goes to prove WOTCs decision to define the roles each class/PC will play. Phrenic suffered where Dirty endured, with three of his defences higher than Dirty's he still found it difficult to match the resolute Dwarf.Second thing, 'the unload' it seems all combat encounters in KOTS followed a fairly set format, the first two rounds the PCs 'unloaded' the big guns- while there were multiple enemies still on the field- bursts, blasts and area effects; encounter powers over at wills, and in the end-of-level fracas then Action points early on. Turns one and two were by far the bloodiest, the longer the battle went on the less damage the PCs tended to do. Although, at some point, the PCs seemed to rally and step up the pace a little.Perhaps this is a function of low level play, perhaps things will change when the PCs advance in levels and have greater powers at their call- I somehow dout this however. The unwritten rule seems to be- break them early, kick the bad guys as hard as you can in the opening turns and then worry about what's left- obvious perhaps, but worth noting.Thirdly- harder encounters take longer to play and use more resources, another one that's obvious really but nevertheless worth mentioning. KOTS has a segmented approach, it's easier in Goodman Games scenarios for one encounter to bleed into another, KOTS compartmentalises. Harder translates as, well... something that affects the PCs ability to do concentrated damage in the opening rounds- so terrain that prevents, an enemy that evades or comes in waves, or has all of its hit points in one place (a solo).As shown the greater the threat (Encounter Level) the longer, on average, the encounter will take to play out. This fills me with trepidation, how long is it going to take for the PCs to wade through a Level +4 encounter when the PCs are Level 10, we'll see. Does the fact that the PCs are Level 10 mitigate for this, will their greater powers level the playing field- we'll see.The point being if you've lined up a Level +6 Encounter don't expect to be finishing it off in anything less than 90 minutes, you get my meaning.Lastly- grind, it seems to me that grind is circumstantial, several of the encounters in KOTS were grindy, I described turns at times as attritional- the slow (or fast) wearing down of the enemy (resources, numbers present and hit points). Again how will this change at higher levels- will the damage output keep up with the bad guys hit points, defences and other abilities to resist damage/effects? I wait to see.There were several combats when the end was inevitable, and yet took thirty minutes to play out. in particular the Undead encounters in KOTS- Zombies, gah! Yet at the time these seemed to my players to be moments of calm, some fights are easy, while the players were perhaps not challenged sufficiently they certainly seemed to be enjoying themselves, and thus these one-sided affairs are easily forgiven.Grind itself, are perhaps the moments when, as above the conclusion is without doubt, and yet the fighting remains turgid- swinging and missing, or else nibbling away at the opponents cache of hit points. I said this was circumstantial- it can be mitigated by many factors- the fact that my players have never played the game before meant that every bad guy was somehow new, and different, and better still... unknown. For those that have been around the block, RPG and edition-wise, then these combats are inevitably going to drag and produce grind.KOTS is guilty also of too densely populating its dungeon- Kobold Ambush (x2), Goblin Encounter (x how many?), Undead encounters follow, Hobgoblin encounters... They're packed to tight, even newbies like my players realised this and knew what to expect at times- which is half the battle.I tried my best in game, I used what role-playing skills I possess to act the giddy-goat, when appropriate, but again KOTS makes it hard(er), too many speechless creatures that the DM has to bring alive by constantly trying to describe the way in which it moves, menaces and kills... it's a testing scenario for a newbie DM. It's much easier to bring to life a chamber full of bloodthirsty pirates, or raving dwarves- bad guys that can scream and shout, threaten and generally play their part (most often dying noisily).These things make for grind, circumstantial as I say, but inevitable perhaps- the more the players play the greater the need for immersive environments, plots and stories that provoke reaction, and bad guys with new (and cool, and unexpected) things to say and do...KOTS struggles at times, I can see why people have railed (at times) against it, part of me agrees with many of the things that are said, and yet... it serves its purpose. Grind can be overfamiliarity, bad dice rolls, over or under whelming encounters, and two dozen other things- including a part of the 4th Edition D&D game.In conclusion- I need more data, hence the next one, already started (see sig), and the one that follows (H2), let's see what lies in store.Thanks for reading.</blockquote>

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