New BSG In Hindsight: A Cylon Weakness

[Diamond Cross]

I'm reading through the BSG RPG book and just got past the part about Galactica being at the weapons depot in Ragnar.

They met Leoben Conoy there for the first time. He told them he was an arms dealer. An accident caused an explosion that trapped him and Adama in a room.

Leoben was getting sicker and sicker. Adama realized one thing.

Leoben was a Cylon because the EM field was rotting his silica relays.

Now that would be the way to detect Cylons. They didn't need to have Baltar develop a Cylon detecting device that failed. all they had to do was lock a person in a room that had an EM field until the EM field revealed the person was a Cylon. Or perhaps find some way to generate an EM field throughout the entire ship for a few days, long enough to reveal who is a Cylon and who isn't.

Eventually they could've used larger devices around cities and the like that would also reveal the presence of the Cylons. Or even have some sort of shield around an entire planet.

But EM fields wreak havoc on electronics so that would only cause other problems and inconveniences.

But wouldn't it be worth it to be inconvenienced to find out for certain who is and who isn't a Cylon?

But the thing is, it would've revealed the existence of the Final Five too early and taken the series in a different direction.

I just realized this while reading the BSG RPG core book so that's why this is in hindsight.

 

[Janx]

good point. Though the galactica was in the cloud for some time and Tye suffered no ill effect.

Odds are good, in the pilot, the writers didn't know Tye was a cylon. So they didn't make him have any effects.

One can after justify it that the BSG had better shielding, but odds are good both the ship and the station should have comparable shielding.

 

[Cor Azer]

Recall that the final five are inherently different than the numbered human-looking Cylons. It's possible the EM field didn't affect them in the same way.

In addition, I don't recall how long Leoben said he had been trapped at Ragnar Anchorage before Galactica showed up. Sure, Galactica was probably there for a while loading up, but maybe they weren't there long enough for Tigh and Tyrol to be affected.

 

[El Mahdi]

I thought it was a specific type of radiation, and not an EM field, that was causing the problems? (I'd have to rewatch the miniseries though to be sure, and I don't have access to it right now...) Since the Galactica could handle direct hits from Nukes, I'm assuming it's shielded from such levels of radiation (wich is the only real danger from a Nuke in space, even though they do inaccurately show EMP effects from a space detonation). The station itself may not be armored that way (capable of surviving a Nuke). Also, if it is Radiation and not an EM field, it might be impractical, impossible, and/or prohibitively dangerous, for the colonials to build a device that emits the same type of radiation...

 

[Ahnehnois]

In 'The Passage', Athena was selected as a scout because she was more resistant to radiation than the humans. I think there was some specific aspect of the Ragnar Nebula that hurt Leoben, not radiation in general.

 

[wolff96]

good point. Though the galactica was in the cloud for some time and Tye suffered no ill effect.

Odds are good, in the pilot, the writers didn't know Tye was a cylon. So they didn't make him have any effects.

While I agree that the writers probably hadn't decided he was a Cylon yet, Tigh probably wouldn't have been noticed anyway...

He was in the grip of Delirium Tremens anyway, from his alcohol detoxification! Leoben showed the exact same symptoms -- shaking, sweating, disorientation -- that you would already expect of a long-term drunk cutting back.

Also, note that none of the *other* hidden Cylons in the fleet were seriously bothered either -- I think it was supposed to be inadequate shielding on the station itself that was the problem, as those on the ships seemed fine. Not to mention that it took a decent amount of time to become a problem for the Cylons left on the station... at least a couple of days.

 

[El Mahdi]

I think it was supposed to be inadequate shielding on the station itself that was the problem, as those on the ships seemed fine...

Yeah. That's what I think too.

In order to be able to live long term on a vessel in space, it's assumed that the colonists materials technology would have reached a level capable of solving the problem of shielding occupants from cosmic radiation and solar particle events (the only other practical way is some type of EM or plasma shield, which just isn't a part of BSG...like energy weapons). Any material that could protect against cosmic radiation and solar particle events long term, across the full EM spectrum, would easily protect against the radiation in the environment around the station (and additionally, easily shield against space detonations* of nukes).

If it was an EM field and not radiation, Galactica was specifically hardened against such things. It was an older battlestar that Adama had specifically left un-networked and EM shielded so the Cylons couldn't induce signals or viruses in it's systems - unlike the newer battlestars. Of course though, that hardening wouldn't necessarily protect biologics, it could only be a part of systems through shielding of wires and such. But it is possible that the skin/shielding material of Galactica may protect against this also, though it's never discussed. A material capable of shielding cosmic and solar particle radiation, would probably be very conductive - possibly even bordering on super-conductivity. Such a material would provide significant protection from an EM field by channeling lines of flux through it's own material, rather than the internal materials it surrounds (which is basically how EMP shielding works). This would be even more effective if internal materials/structures were isolated/insulated from the outside skin/shielding (though structurally, probably very difficult to do).

But this is probably all overthinking it quite a bit. For all of BSG's attempts at visual and conceptual realism, it's still just a fictional narrative - a narrative that in the end is going to put story and plot ahead of most everything. It's hard to believe that a station in such an environment wouldn't have proper shielding. Without such shielding it would be virtually unusable: long term occupation would be impossible from biological effects, electrical systems and components would eventually degrade to a point of inoperability, etc. But, it was necessary for the story - so Adama could learn of the existence of Human-looking Cylons. Thus the station is unshielded despite the illogic of it. Another such instance is when the Galactica is hit by a Cylon Nuke. The people inside the ship feel a shockwave (highly mitigated and surviveable, but a shockwave none the less), and there are electrical system failures and fires due to EMP. But since viewers don't know this wouldn't happen (and possibly the writers didn't know either), and since viewers think of Nukes as massive weapons (which they are - but they still follow the laws of physics), then viewers expect to see a big reaction to a Nuke hitting the ship. Because viewers see a big reaction, but overall minimal damage, they resultantly think: "Nukes are tough...but Galactica's tougher - COOL!" - which is probably the exact response the writers wanted. (Hell, I do know what's supposed to happen, and I thought that scene was seriously cool!) In reality, nuclear weapons for ship-to-ship combat in such a future environment, would likely be impractical. As a result ship-to-ship Nukes probably would not be developed, or even explored. Planetary bombardment however is an entirely different story.





*Space detonations (outside of a planetary atmosphere and EM field) of nuclear weapons are essentially just big, radioactive particle generating flashbulbs. There's no pressure (shockwave), thermal, or EMP aspects to contend with. If in proximity to solid matter, the released particles can cause an ablation of suface matter, and there is some particle pressure, but if it's made of material already capable of long term shielding against cosmic radiation and solar particle events (without generating large amounts of secondary radiation), a nuke isn't going to be a very big deal. It might be a good idea to replace the shielding/skin material at the next opportunity, but short term it's not a problem.

Pressure (shockwave) - requires interaction with surrounding matter, whether atmosphere, liquid, or solid matter (like the inside of a comet or asteroid). If not surrounded by matter but interacting with a surface in a vacuum, it's particles only cause ablation of surface matter.

Thermal - the fissionable material will be pretty hot, but in space it will dissipate quite quickly, since there's no atmosphere to superheat into plasma. Any material capable of handling large scale solar particly events would hardly be effected.

EMP - EMP from atmosphic and low-orbit (high-altitude) detonations is due to two different things interacting with the planets magnetic field: gamma rays from the detonation itself (E1 pulse) and ionized particles from the atmosphere (secondary radiation - E2 pulse) - (there is a third pulse from a detonation - called E3 - that happens because of alterations or "pushing aside" of the Earths magnetic field due to both of the above sources).

Portrayal in the show/miniseries of a nuke causing a shockwave upon detonation with the Galactica, and EMP induced electrical problems and fires inside Galactica, are completely inaccurate. If enough particles were able to penetrate into the ship, or were generated as secondary radiation from the skin/shielding material, to cause EM problems in the Galactica's systems, evey person on board would immediately or eventually die from radiation poisoning...

In order for a Nuke to be effective against the type of skin/shield material necessary for interplanetary/interstellar travel, it would need to have some type of kinetic penetration capability - in which case a high-explosive or thermobaric detonation would be just as effective, and a lot more practical.

 

[TanisFrey]

I read the Honor Harrinton series by David Weber. In the first few book the space ships were using two different types of nuclear missiles. The old style contact nukes and new laser nukes. It was stated the the old contact nukes had to hit the enemy ship to do damage, a near miss usually did very minimal damage. Why? When the nuke goes off the energy dissipates in all directions, unless it is in contact with the ship, 99% of the energy goes off in the wrong direction.

The new style laser nukes used the explosion to power a x-ray laser. This laser was hundreds times more powerful the ship based lasers and could be maneuvered into a secondary attack position to strike the enemy ship in a weak point in the gravity shields. During the early US Star Wars Weapons Program this type of laser was developed in concept. We know how it should work but, we don't have the materials currently to make one.

 

[Pbartender]

In order for a Nuke to be effective against the type of skin/shield material necessary for interplanetary/interstellar travel, it would need to have some type of kinetic penetration capability - in which case a high-explosive or thermobaric detonation would be just as effective, and a lot more practical.

...Or, for that matter, a small, but sufficiently fast, bullet.

One of the most effective ways to to disable or destroy a fast-moving spaceship would be to simply scatter copious amounts of sand or pea gravel in its path.

 

[El Mahdi]

...Or, for that matter, a small, but sufficiently fast, bullet.

One of the most effective ways to to disable or destroy a fast-moving spaceship would be to simply scatter copious amounts of sand or pea gravel in its path.

Very True. But, projecting into the future, micro-meteroids and dust are a significant hazard to inter-planetary and inter-stellar travel - along with radiation and lack of gravity - and therefore something that has to be protected against or such travel will not be possible.

We can take care of gravity by using centrifugal force (spinning the vehicle). It's a workable solution, but obviously some type of artificial gravity would be more convenient for the occupants.

But the skin of the vehicle will have to equally shield against micro-meteroids and dust, as well as radiation. There are ideas on materials that could provide this level of protection, but we are unable to make them as of this time. Some day in the future though, I'm sure we will.

But, such a material that could protect against micro-meteroids, would also be nigh impervious to bullets. Even a rail-gun would likely not be able to do it. (Rail Guns right now can only propel a bullet at about Mach 5 - micro-meteroids can have relative speeds exceeding 30,000 mph.) Also, being able to protect against the radiation levels that it does, would probably make it extremely difficult to defeat with energy weapons (lasers, plasma weapons, etc.), due to the shielding materials and the power requirements of the weapons. That leaves the only real alternative as large, high kinetic energy missiles with armor piercing charges and high explosive warheads (or thermobaric).

I love Sci-Fi movies and TV shows, but the reality is that future space combat will probably be more akin to submarine warfare than the way it's normally visualized.