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<blockquote data-quote="Doctor Proctor" data-source="post: 5179443" data-attributes="member: 78547">Simple.&nbsp; Being &quot;good&quot; at a lot of stuff doesn't mean you're the &quot;best&quot; at all those things.&nbsp; Let's take a look, shall we?High AC: Sure, you can get AC equivalent to Plate&nbsp; Heavy Shield with two feats.&nbsp; A Paladin can have that out of the box with zero feats, and a Fighter only needs the single Plate Armor Proficiency feat.&nbsp; Additionally, the Fighter and the Paladin have access to more armor enchantments, as well as armor specialization feats that further increase their AC beyond what the Avenger can get.&nbsp; And on top of that, at least as far as the Fighter is concerned, they have access to things like stances, powers and paragon path/epic destiny abilities that can send it even higher either permanently, or on a temporary basis.High HP: Yes, in terms of base HP the Avenger is 1 HP behind the Fighter, and they get the same amount per level.&nbsp; In theory, they have &quot;Defender level HP&quot;.&nbsp; In practice though, things are different.&nbsp; If you're going DEX/WIS, then your CON will be low.&nbsp; This means that your starting HP is lower, and you have fewer surges (when you're already down 2 to start with).&nbsp; Plus, Wardens have both a higher starting HP value in addition to getting more HP per level...and they have a CON based build, which makes the disparity even higher.High Skills: While the Avenger might be stealthy, even a Dragon Magic Sorcerer with no skill training in Athletic will almost undoubtedly have a higher Athletics...even if the Avenger takes skill training and skill focus (with both it would be close when it comes up to Epic).&nbsp; Any STR-based class will easily outpace an Avenger in that skill once you factor in training/focus and/or backgrounds.&nbsp; So, while they would be rivalling the Clerics of the world in terms of perception, they aren't great at every skill in the game...just some of the more useful ones.Then there's other things like ally buffs, controller effects, action denial, marking mechanics, damage output and a whole host of other factors that other specialists are much better at.&nbsp; The Avenger is well rounded, but he doesn't obsolete the rest of the party in any way.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Doctor Proctor, post: 5179443, member: 78547"] Simple. Being "good" at a lot of stuff doesn't mean you're the "best" at all those things. Let's take a look, shall we? High AC: Sure, you can get AC equivalent to Plate Heavy Shield with two feats. A Paladin can have that out of the box with zero feats, and a Fighter only needs the single Plate Armor Proficiency feat. Additionally, the Fighter and the Paladin have access to more armor enchantments, as well as armor specialization feats that [I]further[/I] increase their AC beyond what the Avenger can get. And on top of that, at least as far as the Fighter is concerned, they have access to things like stances, powers and paragon path/epic destiny abilities that can send it even higher either permanently, or on a temporary basis. High HP: Yes, in terms of base HP the Avenger is 1 HP behind the Fighter, and they get the same amount per level. In theory, they have "Defender level HP". In practice though, things are different. If you're going DEX/WIS, then your CON will be low. This means that your starting HP is lower, and you have fewer surges (when you're already down 2 to start with). Plus, Wardens have both a higher starting HP value in addition to getting more HP per level...and they have a CON based build, which makes the disparity even higher. High Skills: While the Avenger might be stealthy, even a Dragon Magic Sorcerer with no skill training in Athletic will almost undoubtedly have a higher Athletics...even if the Avenger takes skill training [I]and[/I] skill focus (with both it would be close when it comes up to Epic). Any STR-based class will easily outpace an Avenger in that skill once you factor in training/focus and/or backgrounds. So, while they would be rivalling the Clerics of the world in terms of perception, they aren't great at [I]every[/I] skill in the game...just some of the more useful ones. Then there's other things like ally buffs, controller effects, action denial, marking mechanics, damage output and a whole host of other factors that other specialists are much better at. The Avenger is well rounded, but he doesn't obsolete the rest of the party in any way. [/QUOTE]

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