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<blockquote data-quote="Doctor Proctor" data-source="post: 5180171" data-attributes="member: 78547">Oh, I must've done the math wrong.&nbsp; I thought Plate Spec edged out, but I guess not.&nbsp; Even still though, as you noted, the extras that Defenders get will give them the edge.&nbsp; And taking an ED like Adamantine Warrior usually puts them permanently ahead of everyone else...or at the least even, but allowing them to use the Resist 5 All Plate armor.Using the two-handed weapon though is what makes them a Striker, but they don't get the bump to Reflex (and if the Defender took Shield Spec then he'll be getting a 3 point bump).&nbsp; I'm not saying that their AC sucks though, just that they're not invincible and that it can be equaled.Well, the untrained Dragon Magic Sorcerer was meant to be an example of when they top out...namely, in epic.&nbsp; The point was more that while the Avenger might be decent at it, even a class that's not a &quot;traditionally&quot; athletic sort will eventually beat them through stat increases.&nbsp; Once you throw in someone actually taking skill training and/or focus, they easily get left in the dust.&nbsp; And they can't compete on some of the other skills either, like Endurance.&nbsp; Plus, if you're talking about a WIS/DEX build, then they're going to be weak in social skills (CHA based), and even that Religion freebie won't be that great since they won't have a very high INT.IOW, they can't be great at every skill, or even best at most of them.&nbsp; They just happen to synergize very well with some of the more useful ones, like Stealth and Perception.Yep.&nbsp; As with all the classes in 4e, they need a party in order to function optimally.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Doctor Proctor, post: 5180171, member: 78547"] Oh, I must've done the math wrong. I thought Plate Spec edged out, but I guess not. Even still though, as you noted, the extras that Defenders get will give them the edge. And taking an ED like Adamantine Warrior usually puts them permanently ahead of everyone else...or at the least even, but allowing them to use the Resist 5 All Plate armor. Using the two-handed weapon though is what makes them a Striker, but they don't get the bump to Reflex (and if the Defender took Shield Spec then he'll be getting a 3 point bump). I'm not saying that their AC sucks though, just that they're not invincible and that it can be equaled. Well, the untrained Dragon Magic Sorcerer was meant to be an example of when they top out...namely, in epic. The point was more that while the Avenger might be decent at it, even a class that's not a "traditionally" athletic sort will eventually beat them through stat increases. Once you throw in someone actually taking skill training and/or focus, they easily get left in the dust. And they can't compete on some of the other skills either, like Endurance. Plus, if you're talking about a WIS/DEX build, then they're going to be weak in social skills (CHA based), and even that Religion freebie won't be that great since they won't have a very high INT. IOW, they can't be great at [I]every[/I] skill, or even best at most of them. They just happen to synergize very well with some of the more useful ones, like Stealth and Perception. Yep. As with all the classes in 4e, they need a party in order to function optimally. [/QUOTE]

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