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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8098112" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Well, by your response I suppose I am should make sure we are clear on the current argument. Sorcerers are making Wizard's obsolete. All you need is two spellcasters, one of them level 17 using the most powerful 9th level spell in the game, this is to copy the abilities of the wizard to scout ahead and gather all the information. Then the Sorcerer can tailor their spell list to exactly what is needed, making the wizard obsolete.This is your argument now. This rule makes it so the Sorcerer makes the wizard obsolete, as long as a warlock or Bard can take all the things a wizard can do, and do them to gather the information the sorcerer needs. Also, this cannot happen before level 17, when we use the ability to rewrite reality to copy a single wizard spell. I guess I am still left wondering why I should see this rule as breaking the game and making wizard's obsolete....I am not sure what you are trying to say. Your response about the non-dead inhabitants seems to be meant to respond to the Contact other Plane... and ignores the fact that, yet again, you could be lied to. Or it is responding to something else. it certainly makes no sense as a response to the statement you quoted which was "Man, for how obsolete they are, they sure seem necessary to all of your planning to make them obsolete." The second part, well, Limited Wish will be a thing, so I guess that the Warlock could use that once it comes out. Bardic Secrets can of course get Arcane Eye...Edit: Seems you meant Wish from the beginning.Of course, the argument hasn't been about Warlocks and Bards, has it? The argument has been that the Sorcerer has now made the Wizard obsolete. And when we challenged the information gathering capabilities, we now find that the Bard or the Warlock has to take over the role that the Wizard was providing for this to be true. Which makes your attempt at discrediting me by asking if I even high level bro, kind of hilarious, because you've fully scuttled your own argument. This change in the rule does not make the Wizard Obsolete, because the Sorcerer still needs all the information that the wizard (or another class using the abilities they have always had) will provide them, to take advantage of that rule.Planning would include things like the scout dropping poison in the food supply, stealing all their weapons, cutting the straps on their armor... you know, things that would make them way less of a threat when the party comes rolling in? I mean, if you have a Rogue able to reliably and safely scout the entire enemy complex, with no risk to them being found out, then you don't need a sorcerer to prepare certain spells, you have won. You can rip them apart from the inside, with no risks to the party. I mean, yeah, "scouting isn't killing" but if you have free reign of the enemy base, you can pretty much ruin their lives in a handful of days.Sorry, what does it matter if they know you are coming? They send out scouting parties to find the party? Great, now they are fighting you on land you prepared.  They hole up and prepare? I thought the rogue was going about with a +22 and no ability to roll less than a 10 on the die, for a 32 Stealth. Doesn't really matter if they are on higher alert.Also, you don't need to be evil to use tactics. Sure, I guess you can veto the use of poison, but you don't veto fire do you? Burning the castle is going to ruin their day. Burn their food and supplies, cut their bowstrings. "Key Areas" is a poor statement, because some of the places you can do the most damage don't involve areas generally thought of as important. After all, the barracks are a high traffic area generally, but during lunch or dinner, less so. And you can do a lot of damage there with some oil and a torch.But, this is sort of a tangent. This is all about Rogues soloing a castle. Less about Sorcerers.rubs eyesrereadsOkay. This new rule allows two classes to cover a job that was previously handled by one class, and it is the two classes version that is overpowered? That is what the test revealed. And, yes, I am purposefully pointing out that a rule that lets two classes combined handle the work that used to be done by a single class is not overpowered. I am purposefully pointing out that claiming that this rule change made the Wizard obsolete because the sorcerer can do it all, is a complete fabrication, because when we dug into it, we immediately started needing a bard or a warlock to do the things the wizard would be doing, but the sorcerer still cannot. Are you purposefully claiming that allowing the wizard to be so powerful, that even by combining the resources of two other caster classes you can't replicate what they were doing, is balanced? Why? What world does that make things balanced in?Funny that you keep bringing up Wish. Because, you realize that this is also a problem for your argument, right? Because if the problem is that a Sorcerer or Warlock or Bard at high levels might have any spell they may need... so does the wizard. Because Wish can copy any spell in the game. Remember, it is not even an impediment for the Sorcerer to rest for 24 hours to switch out a spell, so the Wizard can simply cast Wish, then rest for 24 hours to get back the spell slot. In fact, the Wizard could use a Simulacrum to cast Wish, getting a spell book with more spells in it, or more scrolls. Then, the Simulacrum might lose the ability to cast Wish, but the Wizard doesn't. Of they could do something similiar with Clone. Funny how neither of those spells are on the other spell lists, meaning the other casters don't have direct access to this exploit, but must find a way to work around it with casting even more wishes.It must be way better, that's why you still needed one of two other classes to make those 44 spells go away. I mean, the Sorcerer had access to two full spell lists, and to complete your routine scouting job, they still needed either a Warlock with the proper Invocations, or a Bard to steal that specific wizard spell. I think this does truly highlight the power difference at play here. I just don't think you are right which way that lies.PS response: Okay, so a Divine Soul sorcerer only can use some scrying themselves.The wizard needed two spells it looked like. Scry and Arcane Eye. Sorcerers can't even get the second, but let us say they could, oh, and invisibility and Find Familiar. So, four spells. 4/44 is 9% of their spells. 4/15 is 27% of their spells, and if we are switching them out, took three days to get. And, again, the Sorcerer can't even copy all of that, so they need either a feat or another spell caster, and they have to be a Divine Soul, any other type of Sorcerer isn't capable of getting Scrying.This is the point you are trying to make, to prove that the Sorcerer is far superior to the wizard with this rule? That, if someone provides them with all the magical assistance to plan everything, then in a week they could change their spells to perfectly counter your entire castle. A week, where the Rogue could do untold damage to the place, if we are assuming the Rogue scouts instead of needing the second caster to gather all this information? Color me unimpressed with how powerful and gamebreaking this is. If I have a week's unlimited access to the enemy fort, and I still need magic to solve the problem, then I am clearly not using my resources effectively.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Why should the DM bother with it now? Why should I bother with coming up with an interesting challenge, I can just make it a big heavy thing for the Barbarian to push. I can just make it a lock for the Rogue to pick. Heck, why even make challenges at all? You are begging the question a lot here, Li. If you already don't need specific spells to solve problems, then there is no reason to change and make the game set up so that you do. If your overland travel is so inconsequential that you can just, speed it up, then why didn't you speed it up to begin with. "Taking advantage" of Spell Versatility is not as easy as people seem to think. Or maybe, the ability for the party to know exactly what is coming for them is too easy. Because without that, this ability is not that powerful. I know this is a mid to low level example, and those are taboo for some reason, but let us say that your party is traveling through the mountains trying to pierce through into an unknown land beyond. What spells do you prepare for that land? What trials will you be facing? What sort of monsters and combats await you? You don't know. And in the face of the unknown, the ability to have "any" spell is as much a hindrance as it is a boon.</blockquote>

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