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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Magic Missile" data-source="post: 423574" data-attributes="member: 7916">I did seriously consider Grim n Gritty, but I ended up modifying it lots and lots to try and get it to do what I wanted, before deciding it would be much easier to implement one additional rule in D&D combat than an entirely new ruleset...At the moment I'm thinking of rapidly levelling them to 3rd almost straight away with some basic Fed-Ex style missions (I don't want to start them at 3rd, I've got some people new to D&D playing and the level-up process would be easier for them) before sending them on any "serious" burglaries.They will be Thieves Guild members until maybe 4-5th level, then be recruited into the Keepers. I agree they're not hugely thievery oriented, hence the lack of Sneak attack and more special class abilities...And my revised sap KO rule: Touch attack to hit, +2 AC for a helmet. Roll damage as normal. If subdual equals or beats current hp, target is KO'd.Hopefully a 3rd level thief can KO a slightly under average guard with the standard d6+d6+d6+STR subdual...</blockquote>