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Message: <blockquote data-quote="mlund" data-source="post: 6105377" data-attributes="member: 50304">The real problem with bonus / package feats is they are being implemented like functions in code. Instead of "hard coding" the skills into the Rogue or the combat abilities into the Fighter they just put the feature into a Feat and then the Character Class just references the Feat. This works great in computer programming, but probably isn't ideal for DNDNext when it comes out.Yes, these Feats should exist. If a non-Thief wants to pick up the ability to Sneak or Sense and Disarm Traps or whatever he should be able to specialize that way with Feat selections.However, if I want to play a Feat-free game with a Thief that can sneak and handle traps I should be able to.That means you're going to have overlapping or redundant "code" in your rules set when you are finished. That's OK, though. It also means you can adjust the balance of the Class Feature vs. a Feat. A Fighter could have a better Knock Down effect than Trip that just uses his Expertise mechanic.Ideally I'd like to see a tiered system like this:Improvised Trip/Knock Down: Kind of weak / context-dependent, anyone can do it as their action as a stuntTrained Trip / Knock Down : Improved utility, anyone who took the feat can do it as their actionExpert Trip / Knock Down: Can be added as a rider to an attack via Combat Expertise or Skill TrickTier 1 is the Improvised Stunt Tier - a rabbit you try to pull out of your hat in a tight spot / moment of opportunity that's cost and context-dependence mean it won't normally be competitive with a basic attack unless you really need to try and get that target off it's feet. I'd attach Disadvantage to things like this, so you'd only use them in circumstances where the stunt context grants you Advantage to balance it out or the risk-reward is just that desperate.Tier 2 is the Feat Tier - still has a high cost but it's easier to use and has a higher probability of success. you don't have disadvantage but you still need to figure out whether a contested check is worth more than whacking a monster with a sword or blasting it with a spell.Tier 3 is the Class Feature Tier - the cost has been dropped drastically and your superior skills let you generate this effect as gravy on top of your normal attack.These could all use the same check mechanic and be very distinct ways of trying to accomplish the same thing that helps distinguish between the "guy trying to pull off a lucky stunt" vs. "guy who practiced this stuff specifically" vs. "guy who is the master of martial combat."It also allows you to modify the mechanical context a bit. Yes, it is a contested roll. When you are unskilled you have Disadvantage. When you are skilled you don't have Disadvantage and you can use your Dexterity instead of your Strength. When you are the Combat Expert you can use either Ability Score and you don't care if the target is X size-categories bigger than you and you can do it while still beating someone to death with a war hammer.That's what I hope this play test packet can grow up to accomplish some day in terms of Martial techniques vis a vi Generic Stunt / Feat Power / Class Ability lines.- Marty Lund</blockquote>

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