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Message: <blockquote data-quote="freyar" data-source="post: 3756894" data-attributes="member: 40227">This is something I could appreciate.  And it looks sort of confirmed, though it's hard to take anything too seriously at this stage. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> From a previous post of yours, Ari, and to address another poster or two:Just to be clear, I meant whether we called elves and eladrin two separate races or two subraces of the same race is possibly a matter of semantics.I think it must be semantics, since we've been told there are no "subraces" per se in 4e. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />  However, we can look at 3.5e as a point of comparison.  In the MM, half-elfs are actually listed as a subrace of elf.  So at some point, the designers of 3.5 must have felt there wasn't actually enough of a difference to make a distinct race (or else, they were just saving space in the book <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />).  The aquatic, gray, wild, and wood elves are all pretty minor variations on the basic high elf, so it makes sense they're just subraces.  Drow are the most interesting case, though.  Like eladrin, they are mentioned in the 4e design article as being "cousins" of elves, so this is a point of comparison between the two editions.  In 3.5, drow are a subrace of elves, but they have a lot of extra features (extra ability bonuses, SR, bonus on some saves, SLAs, and some replacement features which are usually more powerful).  Now it's possible (but I consider it unlikely due to the large drow fanbase out there) that drow will be very different in 4e.  If they're not, though, we're promoting something that's considered an elf subrace to a full race.  It just sounds to me that the 4e eladrin will be in a similar position to the drow when compared to elves, and that looks like a subrace to me. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool    :cool:"  data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" /> Incidentally, in 3.5, eladrin have huge ability bonuses and many extra powers, enough that a ghaele is not even given a level adjustment.  And it strikes me today that the eladrins in the MM art don't look all that elf-like, esp. the bralani.  Just a touch of irony. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /> Now, back to my regularly scheduled posting...</blockquote>

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