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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 3779574" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>So, you are saying that if anyone has ever made an argument badly, or if anyone has ever claimed something in a different situation wrongly, that those claims are now forever tainted so that in a totally different situation its sufficient to point out that people have been wrong before?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm struggling to grasp how people can believe that they can kill alot of supposedly obselete 'sacred cows' that have been with D&D since the beginning, and yet also simultaneously believe that the changes are actually rather small. It seems to me that on the one hand, alot of people here want the new system to be revolutionary and completely different, and at the same time they want to believe that its going to be the same.</p><p></p><p>I didn't feel like 3e's changes were extreme (1e + mechanics familiar from the Fallout RPG). I do feel like 4e's changes are 'extreme'.</p><p></p><p>I can even make that point in a way which is 'friendly' to the optimistic 4e viewpoint. The problems that 4e claims it's addressing are not unique to 3e, but rather are often the result of 3e being so similar to 1e. Whether its actually addressing them or making new problems is the question, but I can't see how you can pretend that the changes envisioned for 4e aren't the most radical in the games history. Isn't that openly the stance of the designers?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 3779574, member: 4937"] So, you are saying that if anyone has ever made an argument badly, or if anyone has ever claimed something in a different situation wrongly, that those claims are now forever tainted so that in a totally different situation its sufficient to point out that people have been wrong before? I'm struggling to grasp how people can believe that they can kill alot of supposedly obselete 'sacred cows' that have been with D&D since the beginning, and yet also simultaneously believe that the changes are actually rather small. It seems to me that on the one hand, alot of people here want the new system to be revolutionary and completely different, and at the same time they want to believe that its going to be the same. I didn't feel like 3e's changes were extreme (1e + mechanics familiar from the Fallout RPG). I do feel like 4e's changes are 'extreme'. I can even make that point in a way which is 'friendly' to the optimistic 4e viewpoint. The problems that 4e claims it's addressing are not unique to 3e, but rather are often the result of 3e being so similar to 1e. Whether its actually addressing them or making new problems is the question, but I can't see how you can pretend that the changes envisioned for 4e aren't the most radical in the games history. Isn't that openly the stance of the designers? [/QUOTE]
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