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Message: <blockquote data-quote="JohnSnow" data-source="post: 3972497" data-attributes="member: 32164">Well, I'm still not sure. While I admit some of the flavor text in Ecology of the Fire Archon is problematic from this standpoint, I don't think it's wholly disassociated.We've been told that all outsiders with "elemental" abilities will have the type "elemental," so I certainly don't think you should read too much into that part. In 4e, efreeti and djinni will be listed as "elementals" as well, so the archons are sharing ground with at least a couple of traditional "celestial" races.Moreover, there will be ordinary old fire elementals, so "Fire Archons" are clearly a bit different. I suppose with their "gods" gone, it's hard to think of them as angels, but that seems surmountable to me. For instance, who says the primordials are really gone? <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":]" title="Devious    :]" data-shortname=":]" /> I suppose that doesn't do anything about the forge origin, but that's a relative non-issue to me.My opinion will largely depend on how much of this makes it into the Monster Manual entry on archons. On the other hand, I've always taken the "Ecology of..." articles with a grain of salt, anyway. I just haven't always like their take on things, and preferred to make up my own.Bear in mind the Monster Manual may just say something like this. "Archons are the servants of the primordials who created the universe and lived within the Elemental Chaos. They are beings created as living embodiments of the elements who were used as soldiers in the war against the gods. Archons come in many types. A few are listed here." (Proceed to entries for Ice Archons, Fire Archons, and maybe a few other types).I don't honestly know what an "Ecology of the Angel" article would say about them, but I suspect it might talk about their role as servants of their gods (potentially as members of the celestial army). Which would make them about as fully fleshed-out culturally as the Fire Archon.To me, the real key to whether they make sense is the nature of the Primordials.</blockquote>

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