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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hawk Diesel" data-source="post: 7467773" data-attributes="member: 59848">While the ability to abuse a mechanic should be a consideration, for me balance is less about abuse and more about how the mechanic compares to others of its kind. No designer can consider every possible combination that could lead to abuse, and we already know of many abusable mechanics in just the core RAW mechanics.First of all: <a href="https://youtu.be/mLj7xLtO6Rw?t=2m50s" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/mLj7xLtO6Rw?t=2m50s</a>Second, no I did not miss what you wrote, and no they would not stay the same. The "penultimate" paragraph gives examples of how other abilities grant bonus action attacks. But those other abilities also provide additional benefits that boost damage. GWM gives you a potential bonus attack that will also potentially deal a +10 bonus to damage. Polearm Master grants the bonus action with d4 damage, but also gives you at least one extra 1d12 attack against melee enemies that get within your reach. These are not equivalent, and need to be accounted and included in any assessment or claim that GWM or Polearm Master (Once again, feats that are an optional rule) would be equivalent to the Swift Striker fighting style.Lets do a quick look at how Swift Striker compares with Dueling and Two Weapon fighting. We will assume a fighter at level 1 with 16 in their main attack state (using standard array), level 5 with an 18 in their main stat, and level 11 with a 20 in their main stat. We will look at Swift Fighting using a shield and using an additional dagger. No assumption of feat or multiclassing.Level 1Dueling (Longsword) - (1d8 + 5) = (4.5 + 5) = 9.5 damage with +2 ACSwift Fighting (Dagger and Shield) - (1d4 + 3) + (1d4 + 3) = (2.5 +3) + (2.5 + 3) = 11 damage with +2 ACTWF (Longsword and Shortsword) - (1d8 + 3) + (1d6 + 3) = (4.5 + 3) + (3.5 + 3) = 14 damage Swift Fighting (2 Daggers) - (1d4 + 3) + (1d4 + 3) + (1d4) = (2.5 + 3) + (2.5 + 3) + (2.5) = 13.5 damageSo at level 1 Swift Fighting with a shield out damages the Dueling style. With a shield it deals less damage than TWF, and is on par with it using two daggers.Level 5Dueling (Longsword) - (1d8 + 6) + (1d8 + 6) = (4.5 + 6) + (4.5 + 6) = 21 damage with +2 ACSwift Fighting (Dagger and Shield) - (1d4 + 4) + (1d4 + 4) + (1d4 + 4) = 2.5 + 4 + 2.5 + 4 + 2.5 + 4 = 19.5 damage with +2 ACTWF (Longsword and Shortsword) - (1d8 + 4) + (1d8 + 4) + (1d6 + 4) = (4.5 + 4) + (4.5 + 4) + (3.5 + 4) = 24.5 damage Swift Fighting (2 Daggers) - (1d4 + 4) + (1d4 + 4) + (1d4 +4) + (1d4) = (2.5 + 4) + (2.5 + 4) + (2.5 + 4) + (2.5) = 22 damageHere, Dueling pulls ahead in damage with similar AC. TWF is the leader in DPR. Swift Striker with a shield deals less than TWF, and so does Swift Striker with a second dagger, though the gap is closer.Level 11Dueling (Longsword) - (1d8 + 7) + (1d8 + 7) + (1d8 + 7) = (4.5+7) + (4.5 + 7) + (4.5 + 7) = 34.5 damage with +2 ACSwift Fighting (Dagger and Shield) - (1d4 + 5) + (1d4 + 5) + (1d4 + 5) + (1d4 + 5) =  (2.5 + 5) + (2.5 + 5) + (2.5 + 5) + (2.5 + 5) = 30 damage with +2 ACTWF (Longsword and Shortsword) - (1d8 + 5) + (1d8 + 5) + (1d8 + 5) + (1d6 + 5) = (4.5 + 5) + (4.5 + 5) + (4.5 + 5) + (3.5 + 5) = 37 damage Swift Fighting (2 Daggers) - (1d4 + 5) + (1d4 + 5) + (1d4 +5) + (1d4 +5) + (1d4) = (2.5 + 5) + (2.5 + 5) + (2.5 + 5) + (2.5 + 5) + (2.5) = 32.5 damageBy the time a fighter gets 3 attacks, TWF becomes the clear winner in terms of DPR. Dueling is a close second. Either way Swift Striker is played (with a second weapon or with a shield), Dueling and TWF beat it out for damage potential. To me, this seems fine, since the lesser damage is made up for in terms of flexibility and the potential to include some short range attacks into the mix.If we begin to assume the use of feats or multiclassing, then yes things get murkier in terms of abuse potential. But the same can be said of many things. For example, it is not uncommon for people to already dip fighter for Action Surge, dip rogue for Cunning Action and small sneak attack, and paladin/sorcerer to dip warlock. Many combinations can be problematic. But I do not think they necessarily break the game. When considering whether a mechanic is balanced, it is important to consider the potential for abuse. But I think it is more important to consider it first among it's peers. People don't consider how spells can be used with Action Surge, they consider them among other spells. Metamagic is not considered in combination with Arcane Traditions, but in comparison to other metamagic. Thus, the more important consideration is how Swift Striker measures up to other fighting styles.Does Swift Striker impact how one might play a Paladin? Sure, they will get more chances to use Divine Smite. But you will also have this build competing with those Paladins that love the Polearm Master / Sentinel to increase DPR and control the battlefield. Will this impact how people would play a ranger? Sure! They will get more damage off of Hunter's Mark and have some synergy with Hunter abilities. But this also assumes that the Ranger is going to want to use spells or take Hunter's Mark. And also, guess what! Both Paladins and Rangers are already limited on the kinds of fighting styles available to them. Only the fighter gets all options. If you are worried about how those classes might use Swift Striker or if it is appropriate to those classes, then you can limit Swift Striker to the fighter. This would force them to dip for levels in fighter. And if your player was already prone to considering dipping fighter, they would probably have already done it for Action Surge. This puts your players at least one, if not two levels behind the others in getting their ASIs, and will also prohibit them from reaching their capstone abilities (if anyone ever actually makes it to level 20).Dipping always comes with a cost, and it already creates problems because so many of the really good class abilities are front loaded into their design. Abuse is already possible with a number of mechanics. And while I see potential for abuse with Swift Striker (I'm shocked no one has mentioned a monk dipping fighter for this fighting style!), I do not see it being any more abusable than other combinations that have already been discovered.</blockquote>

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