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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 866697" data-attributes="member: 3146">Re: ok ok sheeshWell, one 3rd level spell, one sixth level spell (Mass Haste), and several magic items (Weapons of Speed, boots of Speed, etc). But I understand your point. It may not be the best way to balance the game. However, if the changes to the rules don't take the far-reaching effects of changing those important features of the game into account--by balancing TWF with THF and melee with archery or creating other methods of balancing them they will not be an improvement.If you ask me, including a clearly worded version of Lion's Charge in the PH would go a long way towards rectifying a lot of the balance issues raised by the Haste changes.You really need to make up your mind here: is the choice in 3.0 between casting Haste and "sucking" or have you--as you later claim--seen a lot of "effective wizards without Haste." If you've seen the latter, that would seem to undermine your dramatics about the power of haste. (Although it doesn't necessarily undermine my point WRT Haste and game balance--I'm maintianing primarily that Haste is integral to the balance between various kinds of FIGHTERS not that it's integral to the balance of all wizards (although I think it is very important to blaster wizards--enchanters, necromancers, and transmuters focussed on save or die spells can make do without it)).That's what all the detractors of Haste say. Yet somehow it's not boring if the battle starts and the archer uses rapid shot. Battle starts. Archer uses Rapid Shot. Did I mention Archer uses Rapid Shot? Or the fighter doing the same thing with power attack. Or the fighter using a bastard sword. Fight starts. Draw sword. Fight starts draw sword. Did I mention "draw sword?" Or Full attack. Charge. Full attack. Charge. Etc. Or a rogue tumbling behind the villain and sneak attacking. Or a different kind of wizard doing the same thing with fireball. Or a sorceror casting magic missile repeatedly until things die.The point is that there seem to be some tactics that people get bothered about their repetition but there's far more repetitiveness that nobody is bothered about. If you look at Haste as a part of a typical mid to high level group's battle tactics--just like drawing a sword or using rapid shot, I think it will become clear that the addition of 3.0 Haste's partial action creates more opportunities for creativity and variation in combat rather than less.I think druids are as worthwhile as the next guy but even I wouldn't pretend that they wouldn't be taking a huge power hit if they lost animal friendship. Could they still be a playable class. Probably. Would it be a good thing? Definitely not.I don't think it's necessarily a "cop out." The ability to cast spells is the point of some classes. If Paladins couldn't cast Holy Sword, they'd be much weaker. Giving them a good spell isn't a cop out--part of what separates paladins from fighters is that fighters get weapon specialization and lots of feats and paladins get Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Smite Evil, and Holy Sword. And if that means that Paladins who pretend that Holy Sword isn't on their spell list will often be weaker than paladins who use Holy Sword, that doesn't make the inclusion of Holy Sword a cop out. What exactly would the designers be copping out of? The duty to make Paladin a worthwhile class? I rather think that a good spell list is part of what makes a class worthwhile.Doesn't this contradict the hysterics about the inordinate power of Haste?</blockquote>

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