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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 5629559" data-attributes="member: 2067">I think they're good first drafts.I think they have four big problems as implemented:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> GP Cost: GP cost is a permanent cost. It's never coming back. Almost always, it's better to save it for a magic item than it is to spend it on a ritual, tactically speaking.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Only One Character Gets To Do It: Because they work on a basic skill check, only one character gets to use a ritual at a time. They are not dependent on the party, so they are not good to use in times where you want to involve the whole party. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Mostly Pathetically Weak: Partially as a consequence of the above, they have to be weak, limited, and unable to do much. They can't actually affect the game in any meaningful way, or else they're too powerful for one character to have.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Weird Timing Issues: Times in 4e are represented by rests: Short Rests and Long Rests. "1 hour" is nigh meaningless, rules-wise. Long casting times make them impractical to use in many circumstances. </li> </ol>They're not insurmountable problems. Turn the ritual into something any party member can participate in, that costs Action Points or Healing Surges, and that uses a sensible timescale, and that actually has a significant effect, and you've got a nice little silo for "noncombat magic" that can even be expanded. Perhaps a Diplomacy "ritual" that is cast over the duration of a conversation to make an NPC friendly toward you. <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/232111-shouldnt-most-rituals-free-6.html#post5449192" target="_blank">I've talked a bit about this before</a>. I think the bigger problems for skill challenges are these:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> They don't let players contribute uniquely: Heal check is a Heal check is a Heal check. Highest one does it. Move on. Nobody does anything unique to contribute to success. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Success and Failure are binary, and often meaningless: There is no cost for winning, no chance to mitigate a failure. It's an either/or effect, and often the only penalty for failure is that the plot moves on slightly different rails for a little while. Individual successes and failures are often meaningless except as "you're getting closer to victory!" </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> The Opposition is passive: Static DC's that sit there and do nothing other than make you roll against them are boring. It is like fighting minions who do nothing but stand there and hurt you when you miss. </li> </ol><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/blogs/kamikaze-midget/" target="_blank">I've talked about this for a while, too</a>. I think these problems are more structural. A system that relies on simply "standing in place and rolling d20's until you win or loose" is a weak system for anything dramatic or interesting or unique. You can add variety to it, but then it looses its defining simplicity and flexibility (which are its major virtues). I think both problems are a symptom of something else in 4e, and that is valuing the combat encounter almost to the exclusion of the rest of the game, and ignoring the broader adventure. Rituals and skill use gain context in the broader adventure, used to overcome the challenges of that adventure, mostly used to overcome the challenges that are not combat. 4e lacks a satisfying way to contribute to challenges that are not combat, so it necessarily presents the problem of having all adventuring be all about combat, just based on what the PC's are actually capable of, and what the DM has solid (if very complex) rules for. Balance, I think, needs to exist at the level of the adventure, and not just at the level of the encounter.I do think it needs to exist at the level of the encounter, too, but 4e has no real concept of adventure balance, unlike the older school editions, which had no real concept of encounter balance. We've swung the pendulum all the way over. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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