Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
New Legends and Lore:Head of the Class
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5632791" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>My feeling is that there's a continuum in 4e. I think that is the way it is intended to work. You have:</p><p></p><p>1) Basic d20 roll (check, attack, ability, etc) - resolves a simple situation or adjudicates an atomic action. These are binary, the situations they deal with are binary and rarely resolve anything completely.</p><p></p><p>2) A check which modifies something - The case here is still a simple d20 check but in this case the results are not so black and white. If you fail a History check you know that the book is a copy of an ancient Turathi text on devils, but miss the reference to some useful tidbit of information. It could also represent the rogue scouting the enemy but making a little noise. He gets the lay of the land, but the opposition is more alert.</p><p></p><p>3) Group checks - Situations where failure or success will depend on the group as a whole executing a task. There COULD be variable success, but the situation isn't one that involves any extended narrative and where a single level of success/failure works. The whole party sneaking closer to the monsters to launch a surprise attack could be an example.</p><p></p><p>4) Simple complexity 1 SC - These are often used as 'extended skill checks'. They can accomodate variable levels of success and deal with situations where several skills are useful. The rogue scouting could simply be made into an SC of this type. Variable success is now easily accommodated.</p><p></p><p>5) More complex SC situations. At this point all the various possible narrative machinery is fully engaged. </p><p></p><p>I think the 'risk more' concept really is inherent at several of these levels, but it has been a tradition of D&D that these are always narrative in nature. The brutes aiding the rogue to disarm the trap are close enough to be hurt in the explosion because the trap hits everyone in a 2 square radius and you can't aid if you aren't close enough to perform the task. </p><p></p><p>In other systems like BW the key difference seems to me to be that the player's 'fate point' (or whatever resource it is in any given system) is a plot token. It gives the player permission to alter the conditions of the situation (the world) in such a way as to create a greater level of risk and reward. Spend a fate point and the goblin guarding the door goes to relieve himself and you can sneak inside the cave to see what he's guarding. In 4e this CAN be handled, but it is done using the reverse procedure. The rogue would say "hey, DM is there any way I can sneak past this guard?" and the DM might say "OK, he momentarily goes off to relieve himself, make me a Stealth check." You're still raising the stakes. It could also involve using a resource, "OK, but you'll need to be invisible, do you want to use your encounter power to do that?"</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 5632791, member: 82106"] My feeling is that there's a continuum in 4e. I think that is the way it is intended to work. You have: 1) Basic d20 roll (check, attack, ability, etc) - resolves a simple situation or adjudicates an atomic action. These are binary, the situations they deal with are binary and rarely resolve anything completely. 2) A check which modifies something - The case here is still a simple d20 check but in this case the results are not so black and white. If you fail a History check you know that the book is a copy of an ancient Turathi text on devils, but miss the reference to some useful tidbit of information. It could also represent the rogue scouting the enemy but making a little noise. He gets the lay of the land, but the opposition is more alert. 3) Group checks - Situations where failure or success will depend on the group as a whole executing a task. There COULD be variable success, but the situation isn't one that involves any extended narrative and where a single level of success/failure works. The whole party sneaking closer to the monsters to launch a surprise attack could be an example. 4) Simple complexity 1 SC - These are often used as 'extended skill checks'. They can accomodate variable levels of success and deal with situations where several skills are useful. The rogue scouting could simply be made into an SC of this type. Variable success is now easily accommodated. 5) More complex SC situations. At this point all the various possible narrative machinery is fully engaged. I think the 'risk more' concept really is inherent at several of these levels, but it has been a tradition of D&D that these are always narrative in nature. The brutes aiding the rogue to disarm the trap are close enough to be hurt in the explosion because the trap hits everyone in a 2 square radius and you can't aid if you aren't close enough to perform the task. In other systems like BW the key difference seems to me to be that the player's 'fate point' (or whatever resource it is in any given system) is a plot token. It gives the player permission to alter the conditions of the situation (the world) in such a way as to create a greater level of risk and reward. Spend a fate point and the goblin guarding the door goes to relieve himself and you can sneak inside the cave to see what he's guarding. In 4e this CAN be handled, but it is done using the reverse procedure. The rogue would say "hey, DM is there any way I can sneak past this guard?" and the DM might say "OK, he momentarily goes off to relieve himself, make me a Stealth check." You're still raising the stakes. It could also involve using a resource, "OK, but you'll need to be invisible, do you want to use your encounter power to do that?" [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
New Legends and Lore:Head of the Class
Top