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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5632791" data-attributes="member: 82106">My feeling is that there's a continuum in 4e. I think that is the way it is intended to work. You have:1) Basic d20 roll (check, attack, ability, etc) - resolves a simple situation or adjudicates an atomic action. These are binary, the situations they deal with are binary and rarely resolve anything completely.2) A check which modifies something - The case here is still a simple d20 check but in this case the results are not so black and white. If you fail a History check you know that the book is a copy of an ancient Turathi text on devils, but miss the reference to some useful tidbit of information. It could also represent the rogue scouting the enemy but making a little noise. He gets the lay of the land, but the opposition is more alert.3) Group checks - Situations where failure or success will depend on the group as a whole executing a task. There COULD be variable success, but the situation isn't one that involves any extended narrative and where a single level of success/failure works. The whole party sneaking closer to the monsters to launch a surprise attack could be an example.4) Simple complexity 1 SC - These are often used as 'extended skill checks'. They can accomodate variable levels of success and deal with situations where several skills are useful. The rogue scouting could simply be made into an SC of this type. Variable success is now easily accommodated.5) More complex SC situations. At this point all the various possible narrative machinery is fully engaged. I think the 'risk more' concept really is inherent at several of these levels, but it has been a tradition of D&D that these are always narrative in nature. The brutes aiding the rogue to disarm the trap are close enough to be hurt in the explosion because the trap hits everyone in a 2 square radius and you can't aid if you aren't close enough to perform the task. In other systems like BW the key difference seems to me to be that the player's 'fate point' (or whatever resource it is in any given system) is a plot token. It gives the player permission to alter the conditions of the situation (the world) in such a way as to create a greater level of risk and reward. Spend a fate point and the goblin guarding the door goes to relieve himself and you can sneak inside the cave to see what he's guarding. In 4e this CAN be handled, but it is done using the reverse procedure. The rogue would say "hey, DM is there any way I can sneak past this guard?" and the DM might say "OK, he momentarily goes off to relieve himself, make me a Stealth check." You're still raising the stakes. It could also involve using a resource, "OK, but you'll need to be invisible, do you want to use your encounter power to do that?"</blockquote>

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