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<blockquote data-quote="Salamandyr" data-source="post: 5715150" data-attributes="member: 40233">A little OT, but still in the realm of skill use; your post reminded me of something that really bugged me about 3e and continues in Pathfinder and 4th edition.The abilities of the thief once represented actual &quot;special abilities&quot;, like the ability to climb walls and hide in shadows.&nbsp; Note this isn't just hiding behind things, or climbing trees.&nbsp; This was, &quot;if it's a dark room, you can hide&quot; and, &quot;handholds, footholds?&nbsp; Who needs them?&nbsp; Get up there!&quot;.&nbsp; As those special abilities got turned into skills, the thief essentially lost them.&nbsp; Yes, he can stealth, but needs concealment--something to hide in, or behind, and if that thing happens to be fog or shadows, he actually loses the ability to make a sneak attack anyway.&nbsp; Climbing walls became just a harder version of climbing trees, which the rogue gained no bonus for, and was often hampered by low strength.One thing I'd like to see with any change is a return to rogues/thieves actually being able to do things with their skills that other classes can't do, like hide in the corner of a torchlit room, or climb supposedly impossible to climb walls that stymy others.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Salamandyr, post: 5715150, member: 40233"] A little OT, but still in the realm of skill use; your post reminded me of something that really bugged me about 3e and continues in Pathfinder and 4th edition. The abilities of the thief once represented actual "special abilities", like the ability to climb walls and hide in shadows. Note this isn't just hiding behind things, or climbing trees. This was, "if it's a dark room, you can hide" and, "handholds, footholds? Who needs them? Get up there!". As those special abilities got turned into skills, the thief essentially lost them. Yes, he can stealth, but needs concealment--something to hide in, or behind, and if that thing happens to be fog or shadows, he actually loses the ability to make a sneak attack anyway. Climbing walls became just a harder version of climbing trees, which the rogue gained no bonus for, and was often hampered by low strength. One thing I'd like to see with any change is a return to rogues/thieves actually being able to do things with their skills that other classes can't do, like hide in the corner of a torchlit room, or climb supposedly impossible to climb walls that stymy others. [/QUOTE]

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