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Message: <blockquote data-quote="P1NBACK" data-source="post: 5715864" data-attributes="member: 83768">That's not inclusion. He specifically states he mashed up 3E and 4E rules. He didn't even discuss how older editions presented those rules. His examples are straight up out of modern D&D models. He just assumes "setting DCs" is the standard and that the complexity arises from how you modify that skill check, instead of say having skill checks with setting DCs altogether. That's why older editions fell between 1 and 2, not because his scheme somehow reflected them, but because they weren't represented whatsoever. Because he went straight from "you climb at half your speed" to the default "checks for each climb" thing and totally skipped over any sort of divergence from the status quo skill checks from 3E and 4E. He can say he's avoiding edition comparison, but then by using the standard methods of 3E and 4E only, he's outright avoiding historic methods altogether - something his previous poll indicated that players wanted to preserve.Are you less confused? As it stands, I can choose Option 1, which sucks because it doesn't address DM judgment whatsoever. Or, Option 2, which is basically the same as Option 3, because "based on the difficulty of the climb" will need guidelines. Do you really think Option 2 is a serious rules option? "Based on the difficulty of the climb" will need supplemental rules, which will wind up looking more like Option 3: a bunch of modifiers affecting the climb. Therefore, we have: Option 1, Option 2 and 3 (basically the same), or "Radically Different" and "Nothing whatsoever". Wtf? He could have added: None. I want an option that's not radically different, but falls somewhere between these options. Where I stand, I don't want to roll checks for every single task that will occur in a basic adventure. But, there are also times when seemingly basic tasks, such as climb, become extraordinary: climbing the slick walls of a tower, climbing sheer cliffs, etc. This is something Monte doesn't address. His choices basically become: No checks. Checks all the time based around a bunch of modifiers (more, or less modifiers to taste). DM wings it. Radically different. Is that really the only options? It is in 3E (more to taste) and 4E (less to taste).</blockquote>

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