Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
New Legends & Lore
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 5488552" data-attributes="member: 59082"><p>I agree with you Dausuul, but this begs the question: How to give lots of options without the feat/power bloat? How to give players the sense that the character they are creating is unique, not just conceptually but in terms of game mechanics and choices?</p><p></p><p>Let's start with the basic possibilities: race and class. Going by the offline version of Character Builder, and not including Essentials options, you have:</p><p></p><p>36 Races x 26 Classes = 936 race-class combinations</p><p></p><p>Now considering that many of those options are rarely used (kenku?), let's reduce the races to "primary" ones used in the three Player's Handbooks, which gives us:</p><p></p><p>18 races x 26 classes = 468 race-class combinations</p><p></p><p>That's quite a lot, but even then you have a lot of races and classes that just aren't used all that often (e.g. dwarf swordmage), so when it comes to frequently, so you really have maybe 1-200 common race-class combinations, <em>still </em>quite a few but not a huge amount.</p><p></p><p>Now if we take your next step and add a theme, you add another factorial - so you have not just 1-200 common combinations, but 1,000+, with a total possible of 10,000+ or more combinations, including the more obscure ones.</p><p></p><p>That sounds like a ton of options but what would end up happening is that there would be common, archetypal combinations that would be frequently used. Think of going into an independent video store with tens of thousands of possibilities. A lot of them are junk, a lot of them just weird, and a lot of them you aren't in the mood for. So you decide to scoot over to the New Release wall and pick out something that you could have gotten at Blockbuster. </p><p></p><p>My point being, in that sort of framework--option A + B + C +D = finished character--you end up with surprising few actually used combinations. What I would like to see is a way to add a unique customization, not just a background or concept, but something that adds to the character, makes them one-of-a-kind (if the player wants them to be).</p><p></p><p>So I would recommend doing away with feats and powers and integrating them somehow into class features, but then adding a new category, something like Aspects or Talents, or the Virtues & Flaws of Ars Magica. It could even be something akin to the Greek concept of <em>hamartia </em>- one's divine talent that is also one's weakness. There might be some that are pre-described, but DMs and players would be encouraged to come up with their own that suited the specific campaign. </p><p></p><p>So now you'd have something like:</p><p></p><p>Race + Class + Theme/Style + Aspect/Talent/Virtue/Flaw/Hamartia</p><p></p><p>I'm just making this up as I go along, but your post(s) inspired me to brainstorm a bit. The bottom line is that I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too: get rid of unnecessary rules bloat like feats and powers, but still have room for unique customization and, at the same time, find a way to bring conceptual background stuff into the rules.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mercurius, post: 5488552, member: 59082"] I agree with you Dausuul, but this begs the question: How to give lots of options without the feat/power bloat? How to give players the sense that the character they are creating is unique, not just conceptually but in terms of game mechanics and choices? Let's start with the basic possibilities: race and class. Going by the offline version of Character Builder, and not including Essentials options, you have: 36 Races x 26 Classes = 936 race-class combinations Now considering that many of those options are rarely used (kenku?), let's reduce the races to "primary" ones used in the three Player's Handbooks, which gives us: 18 races x 26 classes = 468 race-class combinations That's quite a lot, but even then you have a lot of races and classes that just aren't used all that often (e.g. dwarf swordmage), so when it comes to frequently, so you really have maybe 1-200 common race-class combinations, [I]still [/I]quite a few but not a huge amount. Now if we take your next step and add a theme, you add another factorial - so you have not just 1-200 common combinations, but 1,000+, with a total possible of 10,000+ or more combinations, including the more obscure ones. That sounds like a ton of options but what would end up happening is that there would be common, archetypal combinations that would be frequently used. Think of going into an independent video store with tens of thousands of possibilities. A lot of them are junk, a lot of them just weird, and a lot of them you aren't in the mood for. So you decide to scoot over to the New Release wall and pick out something that you could have gotten at Blockbuster. My point being, in that sort of framework--option A + B + C +D = finished character--you end up with surprising few actually used combinations. What I would like to see is a way to add a unique customization, not just a background or concept, but something that adds to the character, makes them one-of-a-kind (if the player wants them to be). So I would recommend doing away with feats and powers and integrating them somehow into class features, but then adding a new category, something like Aspects or Talents, or the Virtues & Flaws of Ars Magica. It could even be something akin to the Greek concept of [I]hamartia [/I]- one's divine talent that is also one's weakness. There might be some that are pre-described, but DMs and players would be encouraged to come up with their own that suited the specific campaign. So now you'd have something like: Race + Class + Theme/Style + Aspect/Talent/Virtue/Flaw/Hamartia I'm just making this up as I go along, but your post(s) inspired me to brainstorm a bit. The bottom line is that I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too: get rid of unnecessary rules bloat like feats and powers, but still have room for unique customization and, at the same time, find a way to bring conceptual background stuff into the rules. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
New Legends & Lore
Top