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<blockquote data-quote="Mistwell" data-source="post: 4775144" data-attributes="member: 2525">I have not found any of that to be the case.&nbsp; In fact, I am not even sure how one could draw any of that from 4e.&nbsp; I'd say there are more &quot;exotic&quot; and &quot;not so good guys&quot; options in what we have seen of 4e than what we saw of 3e at this point in its publication schedule.I agree there is more support for political games and other out of combat abilities so far to be found in 3e than in 4e.&nbsp; That may change with time, but right now it's a correct statement.I do not see how a game like spycraft is in any way relevant to the OPs question.&nbsp; 4e has some 3rd party support, and I suspect that support will grow with time.&nbsp; 3e had a lot of support, but that support is shrinking with time.&nbsp; So, it's a matter of whether you want to work off of the body of resources that was already published, or want the new body of resources that is coming in the future.&nbsp; I can see arguments for both.I think they work fine now, and also the rules developed on this board are also quite good, and easy to learn, and available for free.&nbsp; So, the question is &quot;is there a skill challenge system available for me for 4e that works well&quot;, and the answer is &quot;yes&quot;.&nbsp; So, what's the point in bashing it?All rules are created by people, and are therefore likely not perfect fair and unbiased.&nbsp; That is true whether it is in a book written for every player and setting of the game, or in the mind of a DM with the context of his particularly players and game.Sometimes.&nbsp; Certainly if you are flipping pages constantly to find out what some obscure rule says about a situation that could be resolved without pause by simply making a ruling right away based on what seems right for the situation, I'd say it harms role playing.&nbsp; I agree.&nbsp; Heck, try both editions at your local game store, if you can.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mistwell, post: 4775144, member: 2525"] I have not found any of that to be the case. In fact, I am not even sure how one could draw any of that from 4e. I'd say there are more "exotic" and "not so good guys" options in what we have seen of 4e than what we saw of 3e at this point in its publication schedule. I agree there is more support for political games and other out of combat abilities so far to be found in 3e than in 4e. That may change with time, but right now it's a correct statement. I do not see how a game like spycraft is in any way relevant to the OPs question. 4e has some 3rd party support, and I suspect that support will grow with time. 3e had a lot of support, but that support is shrinking with time. So, it's a matter of whether you want to work off of the body of resources that was already published, or want the new body of resources that is coming in the future. I can see arguments for both. I think they work fine now, and also the rules developed on this board are also quite good, and easy to learn, and available for free. So, the question is "is there a skill challenge system available for me for 4e that works well", and the answer is "yes". So, what's the point in bashing it? All rules are created by people, and are therefore likely not perfect fair and unbiased. That is true whether it is in a book written for every player and setting of the game, or in the mind of a DM with the context of his particularly players and game. Sometimes. Certainly if you are flipping pages constantly to find out what some obscure rule says about a situation that could be resolved without pause by simply making a ruling right away based on what seems right for the situation, I'd say it harms role playing. I agree. Heck, try both editions at your local game store, if you can. [/QUOTE]

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