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<blockquote data-quote="the Jester" data-source="post: 6825112" data-attributes="member: 1210"><p>Oh man, I missed a lot! Sorry to jump in with stuff from five days ago (or whatever it is), but there's a lot of good stuff in here!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think one difference between us may be in how we conceive of 1st level characters. </p><p></p><p>In BECMI and 1e, pcs had level titles. A 1st level fighter's level title was "veteran"- so a first level character is not necessarily a novice, so much as one who hasn't had the experiences necessary to get above 1st level. </p><p></p><p>Does that mean I'm typically going to buy the notion of the 'veteran of dozens of wars, leader of men' as a pc background? Well... it depends. Do you mean you were a great warrior and now you've been retired for 30 years and your skills have atrophied? Sure, maybe I can buy that. Do you mean you're the general <strong>right now</strong> who is the smiter of major npcs in the campaign? No, I don't think so. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, you're hitting on a major difference between (at least my) ES@1 games and many other games- the whole notion of a narrative or story that the pcs should be following. And I don't think you can point to a book or a movie as an adequate analogy to a D&D game when you're talking about bringing in new characters unless you consider that <em>those characters might well be npcs.</em> </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The same rules don't apply to pcs and npcs, and they never have. And, largely, I'd say that they shouldn't.</p><p></p><p>In 2e and earlier versions of D&D, the "Men" entry in the Monster Manual had things like bandits and berserkers, and none of them used pc rules. In 3e, there were plenty of weird npcs that you couldn't build by the rules. 4e was over-the-top when it came to customizing npcs, and no npc ever used pc type stats in my game. 5e npcs aren't built like pcs, either. </p><p></p><p>There's also a very different purpose for npcs than there is for pcs. Npcs are either background, allies, contacts, adversaries, or whatever, and a given npc needs to be able to fill its role.</p><p></p><p>That said, I do agree that, broadly speaking, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, but I apply it differently. I'd say that every npc <em>started</em> at 1st level (or below, depending on the specific system) and that, for meaningful ones, you should have a good idea of their history. Npcs also have to abide by the rule of demographics (at least in my game). That is, there are pretty much always fewer npcs of level x+1 than there are of level x. </p><p></p><p>Finally, I'll disagree that pcs are npcs until they are pcs. Well, in most cases- if you take over an existing npc after you lose your character, sure, I'll agree, but otherwise, nah. But here's the rub: if they are first level- and if almost all npcs in the setting are first level- then it makes perfect narrative sense.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="the Jester, post: 6825112, member: 1210"] Oh man, I missed a lot! Sorry to jump in with stuff from five days ago (or whatever it is), but there's a lot of good stuff in here! I think one difference between us may be in how we conceive of 1st level characters. In BECMI and 1e, pcs had level titles. A 1st level fighter's level title was "veteran"- so a first level character is not necessarily a novice, so much as one who hasn't had the experiences necessary to get above 1st level. Does that mean I'm typically going to buy the notion of the 'veteran of dozens of wars, leader of men' as a pc background? Well... it depends. Do you mean you were a great warrior and now you've been retired for 30 years and your skills have atrophied? Sure, maybe I can buy that. Do you mean you're the general [b]right now[/b] who is the smiter of major npcs in the campaign? No, I don't think so. Well, you're hitting on a major difference between (at least my) ES@1 games and many other games- the whole notion of a narrative or story that the pcs should be following. And I don't think you can point to a book or a movie as an adequate analogy to a D&D game when you're talking about bringing in new characters unless you consider that [i]those characters might well be npcs.[/i] The same rules don't apply to pcs and npcs, and they never have. And, largely, I'd say that they shouldn't. In 2e and earlier versions of D&D, the "Men" entry in the Monster Manual had things like bandits and berserkers, and none of them used pc rules. In 3e, there were plenty of weird npcs that you couldn't build by the rules. 4e was over-the-top when it came to customizing npcs, and no npc ever used pc type stats in my game. 5e npcs aren't built like pcs, either. There's also a very different purpose for npcs than there is for pcs. Npcs are either background, allies, contacts, adversaries, or whatever, and a given npc needs to be able to fill its role. That said, I do agree that, broadly speaking, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, but I apply it differently. I'd say that every npc [i]started[/i] at 1st level (or below, depending on the specific system) and that, for meaningful ones, you should have a good idea of their history. Npcs also have to abide by the rule of demographics (at least in my game). That is, there are pretty much always fewer npcs of level x+1 than there are of level x. Finally, I'll disagree that pcs are npcs until they are pcs. Well, in most cases- if you take over an existing npc after you lose your character, sure, I'll agree, but otherwise, nah. But here's the rub: if they are first level- and if almost all npcs in the setting are first level- then it makes perfect narrative sense. [/QUOTE]
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