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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Khaalis" data-source="post: 4364793" data-attributes="member: 2167">To VerisionNot to get snipey (and I'm really not trying to be but it will likely come off that way anyway) but technically by your logic, as it comes across to me in reading your post, is that the "Official" Warforged is "illegal" also.Per the Pre-Release the Warforged gains the following "illegal" entries because they are not in the MM entry:* +2 Intimidate* Living Construct— You can use attached components and embedded components made for warforged.— Rather than sleep, warforged spend 4 hours refraining from any strenuous activity. You need to spend 4 hours in this state to gain the same benefits other races gain from taking a 6-hour extended rest. While resting in this low-exertion state, you are fully aware of your surroundings and notice approaching enemies and other events as normal.* Warforged Mind: +1 Will defense* The new Warforged Resolve encounter power since it changed.Also by your logic, ti would seem that the MM entry for the Drow is technically illegal (even though its in the book), since in the PHB it says PC races shouldn't get Darkvision, but the PC option for Drow in the MM specifically gives it. IMHO, that is as it should be. Any true Underdark race should have darkvision, but not races that just prefer the night or that sometimes live in caves/underground (that's low-light).Technically I have to argue this. The PC version of the MM minotaur HAS a natural gore attack ... Goring Charge.1) It is specifically called "Goring"2) It is an un-keyworded encounter power (No Weapon keyword, which means its natural)3) It is a Racial power (which means its natural)4) It deals 1d6 damage -- Not [W] damage, Not 1d4 for standard Unarmed Attack (which indicates a natural weapon that deals more than 1d4)5) It gets a proficiency bonus as if the gore was a weapon (which means its a weapon - thus a natural weapon)This is the same "Goring Charge" attack as a standard MM minotaur. It has just been reduced from an At-Will to an Encounter power in the same way a Half-Elf gets an At-Will as an Encounter power. This makes sense since it involves a Charge action and improves damage over levels and is thus a special ability. However, its still clear to me that its a natural weapon being used.With that said, to be fair, "technically" removing the Gore Racial Trait and leaving JUST the Racial Power would make sense if you want to warp the suspension of disbelief. If the minotaur can use their gore as a weapon at all (as indicated by Goring Charge), then they should be able to make basic attacks with it as well.  The trade-off is that they don't currently have a way of being enchanted. That alone, if anything, makes the gore Weak since they have no real way of scaling with the rest of the system as you level.  Unlike most racial powers which remain useful at all levels, this one does not. As soon as you hit 6th level your gore is already behind the curve by +1 and increases by another +1 drop behind the curve every 5 levels later.  I do think this is how it should be however. Even a race with a "natural weapon" should prefer to use a manufactured weapon over their 'natural' weapon in most cases anyway. To quote you: "Again, read your" Player's Handbook (p56).Your argument here is mostly moot.  ALL PC races are ALWAYS armed in 4E. Specific Reference:  PHB p56"Weapon: Many martial powers, as well as several divine powers, can be used only if you’re wielding a weapon. (You can use an unarmed attack as your weapon.) A weapon’s reach or range determines the reach or range of a power it’s used with."The only difference between a PC punching you in the face or kneeing you in the groin for 1d4 damage and a PC stabbing you with a dagger for 1d4 damage is that a dagger grants a proficiency bonus (if you are proficient). This is the same basic mechanic that people have been giving to the various Monk classes ... "+2 proficiency bonus with the Unarmed weapon group".  With the Minotaur it makes perfect sense (to me at least) that a pair of large pointy horns are going to hurt more than a fist or knee or kick and thus should do slightly more damage (1d6 vs. 1d4).Edit: And this would then support the fact that a TWF ranger can use an unarmed attack as one of their weapons. The other difference is that you can buy an enchanted dagger and not an enchanted body part - unless of course you are a Warforged.EDIT: Oh, and the other thing that is different is that there are no powers that specifically key off the "unarmed" weapon group like their are light blades, polearms, etc. So this is yet another factor that shows a weakness in the "natural weapon" over a standard weapon.Additionally, there is no such thing as being Disarmed in core 4E so this is a moot argument as well.  In the end, the only "advantage" the Minotaur has is that they gain a proficiency bonus to their gore attack and an average of +1 damage with it.  In fact, the more I think about it, the way it was suggested earlier may simply work better.Gore: Your unarmed attacks gain a +2 racial bonus to attack and deal 1d6 damage.</blockquote>

Verification