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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Verision" data-source="post: 4368122" data-attributes="member: 72236">Why did I spend this much time arguing this point?  I'm sorry Khaalis, but all your arguements seem to be "The MM says that they get it, so I'm giving it to them". But you're forgetting that Monster Races =/= PC races. Not in 4e, anyway. That was one of the major problems with monstrous PC races in 4e. To adequately balance the use of the montrous race as a PC race you needed level adjustments. I hope you can agree that level adjustments have been removed from 4e.The lowest level Minotaur in the MM is a level 10 Soldier. You are trying to make a PC race that reflects the MM entry, but you seem to be more interested in making the race an accurate reflection of the MM entry and you don't seem to be as interested in making a balanced PC race. That is a mistake. It's a mistake because that is a 3.x mindset. Aside: Many people who don't like 4e point to the fact that you can't make two monsters fight in 4e. They point to rediculous battles, like a Wolf against the Terrasque and say "If the wolf rolls a 20, and has another wolf flanking for combat advantage, then the wolf knocks the Terrasque prone. That's INSANE. 4e is completely stupid!!!" The problem is that they are looking at the MM in a 3.x mindset. In 4e, monsters aren't designed to fight monsters. The reason behind that is the designers said "Monsters are there to fight PCs, not to fight each other, so we aren't going to design them to fight each other". If they had designed them to fight each other, they simply would have added "...knocked prone, if the target is large or smaller" to the wolf entry. In the same way, monsters were not designed to be PC races in 4e. PC races were not designed to be monsters, either. The MM entries for the Player's Handbook races have different designs. The Human Berserker has a "Battle Fury" attack, but that doesn't mean you should give all PC humans a "Battle Fury" attack. (Yes, I know that's a bit of a stretch, but I hope you get my meaning).I believe the design philosophy behind the "Racial Traits" (pg 276) in the MM is to give a plausible PC race of the same FLAVOR as the MM entry. Again, Monsters are designed TO BE MONSTERS ONLY. You can't just say, "I would go so far as to say that Lizardfolk could also gain the appropriate bonuses to unarmed attacks based on the use of their tail as a weapon (it does more damage than a minotaur’s horns after all)." because what you are really saying is "The MM entry IS the PC race". That is wrong. (Note also that only ONE of the Lizardfolk MM entries can use it's tail as a weapon. You are suggesting that ALL Lizardfolk PCs should get a "Natural Weapon" based off of that.)/Aside Now, I like the feats you wrote up for the "natural attack". I definitely think that racial feats are more appropriate for this sort of ability than just making the ability part of the base racial abilities. I would suggest the same thing for any other homebrew PC race of a MM entry.   ....I just finished writing all this and I said to myself:"Verision, have you even LOOKED at the MM entry for the Minotaur?" and I answered myself "Well, I looked at the Minotaur in the Racial Traits section (pg 276), and I've glanced at the MM entry on pages 190-191, but have I really gone over it with a fine tooth comb?". "No", I answered. So, I says to myself, I says "You'd better take a good long look at that"So I do and, low and behold, THE FRIGING MINOTAUR IN THE MM DOESN'T EVEN HAVE A FREAKING GORE ATTACK (aside from the goring charge which is what the PC minotaur gets anyways). You're trying to give the monster a Natual Weapon and it doesn't even have one in the MM. Heck, your "Lizardfolk get a tail slap at-will" makes more sense than this arguement we've been having. I give up. I'm going to subway.</blockquote>

Verification