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<blockquote data-quote="Beholder Bob" data-source="post: 1442392" data-attributes="member: 12866">By saying the natural armor negates the dex penalty - I mean the +2 natural armor is as good or better then +2 dex.&nbsp; True - the dex gives +1 ac, initiative, skill rolls, and reflex save.&nbsp; Very nice.&nbsp; But natural armor is hard to come by - works all the time, and is stackable.&nbsp; Savage species treats natural ac bonus as an automatic ecl boost - a good indication that I am not alone in considering it good.&nbsp; That is what I meant.&nbsp; This is in addition to the fact that the overall bonus to ac is higher then the penalty for lowering dex.&nbsp; Natural armor and dex are different animals - but a natural ac bonus is damn sweet!I do not have the dmg in front of me - but the guideline of treating a mental boost as twice as valuable is my measurement.&nbsp; W/out the book in front of me, it is hard to debate this point.We will have to disagree with the language issue.&nbsp; The real question, I think, is speak with plant a 1st level spell in your opinion, artificially raised in level?&nbsp; If you feal it is, then your suggested ability is fair for your game.&nbsp; IMO &amp; world - speak with plants is definitly high end magic and very useful - it is worth the 3rd/4th lv slot it occupies.Well, lets compare (and no copping out this time) You've stated my races abilities...now lets compare to some of the others..Well - this is how I compare races.&nbsp; Another system is Upperkrusts - we rate powers differently, though our end results are very similar.&nbsp; Use either of our systems - or the savage species - to get a feal for your race.&nbsp; Also - post your race on another board - see if you get a different response then mine.&nbsp; Take the average of the opinions...Races should come to 4.5 or less+2&nbsp; &nbsp; +2 physical or mental statistic-1&nbsp; &nbsp; -2 mental statistic vs physical stat bonus-1&nbsp; &nbsp; -2 physical statistic vs mental stat bonus-2&nbsp; &nbsp; -2 statistic vs same type stat bonus+/-1&nbsp; &nbsp; +/- 10’ move, Base MV: M &amp; L 30’, S 20’+1/4&nbsp; &nbsp; skills available as class skills do to race (each)+1/4&nbsp; &nbsp; each +1 to a skill roll+1/2&nbsp; &nbsp; low light vision+1&nbsp; &nbsp; dark vision 30’+3/2&nbsp; &nbsp; dark vision 60’+1/4&nbsp; &nbsp; reduce vision or hearing penalty for range in ½+1/4&nbsp; &nbsp; extra language known-1/2&nbsp; &nbsp; no race class+1/4*&nbsp; &nbsp; 2 race classes+1/2&nbsp; &nbsp; Any race class (per humans)+3/2&nbsp; &nbsp; 4+HD SR+1/4&nbsp; &nbsp; 4 SR +1 up to 10 (so SR 10+HD = +3)+1/2&nbsp; &nbsp; 10 SR +1 up to 15 (so SR 15+HD = 5½)+1&nbsp; &nbsp; 10’ clumsy flight +1/2&nbsp; &nbsp; every +10’ or 1 step up in flight quality+1&nbsp; &nbsp; spell like ability, 1st level, 1/day&nbsp; OR &nbsp; &nbsp; know 2 0th level, use 2+(INT mod)/day+1/2&nbsp; &nbsp; each additional use+1&nbsp; &nbsp; each LV the spell is higher level+1/4&nbsp; &nbsp; natural attack, d4 or less+1*&nbsp; &nbsp; treat one size larger for grapple, trip, and bull-rush.+1&nbsp; &nbsp; scent+1/4&nbsp; &nbsp; able to take one or more MM feats+1&nbsp; &nbsp; natural armor - per point+1/4&nbsp; &nbsp; each additional form available.+1/2&nbsp; &nbsp; creature type provides immunity (giant, fey)+3/2&nbsp; &nbsp; as above but excellent immunity (undead)+3/4*&nbsp; &nbsp; +4 SP at 1st +1 SP each level &gt; 1st+2*&nbsp; &nbsp; extra feat at 1st, choice from list of 10+ feats+1/2&nbsp; &nbsp; +2 save Vs (poison &amp; disease) or (enchantments), (death effects), (compulsion)+1/4&nbsp; &nbsp; +2 save Vs (Language)+0&nbsp; &nbsp; Last extra day w/out food prior penalty+0&nbsp; &nbsp; Hold breath as if CON = CON+2+1&nbsp; &nbsp; use of any 1 martial weapon (exotic if w all martial)+1*&nbsp; &nbsp; +1 HP at 1st LV, Minimum of 2 HP/LV+3/4&nbsp; &nbsp; Heal 50% more HP/day of rest+3/4&nbsp; &nbsp; +1 saves Vs (magic) or (non-magic)-1/4&nbsp; &nbsp; Run is x3 unless on all fours (free action to get on all fours, move action to rise)-1/2&nbsp; &nbsp; Unable to run unless on all fours (as above)*May only be taken onceModifier for stat adjustment: modifiers for physical or mental (STR,DEX,CON or INT, WIS, CHA), including all bonus or minus, but not both at once, that equal or exceed 3 points, are further adjusted by 50% in the worst direction.&nbsp; Example below+1 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CONbonus 1+2 = 3, so 2+1x1.5 = 3.5penalty –2 = -2total is 3.5-2 = 1.5 cost+3 INT, -1 WIS, -2 CHAbonus 3 so 2+1x1.5 = 3.5penalty –1 –2 = -3, so –2 -1x 0.5 = -2.5Combine both modifiers onto same creaturetotal 3.5 – (2.5, cut in ½, phy vs mental)&nbsp; = 2.25 costWhy: high bonuses are hard to offset and allow abuse in a specialty class or ability focus.The races come out toHUMANS 2.75DWARVES 7.25ELVES 4.75GNOMES 5.5HALF-ELVES 3.5HALF-ORCS 1.5HALFLINGS 3.5</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Beholder Bob, post: 1442392, member: 12866"] By saying the natural armor negates the dex penalty - I mean the +2 natural armor is as good or better then +2 dex. True - the dex gives +1 ac, initiative, skill rolls, and reflex save. Very nice. But natural armor is hard to come by - works all the time, and is stackable. Savage species treats natural ac bonus as an automatic ecl boost - a good indication that I am not alone in considering it good. That is what I meant. This is in addition to the fact that the overall bonus to ac is higher then the penalty for lowering dex. Natural armor and dex are different animals - but a natural ac bonus is damn sweet! I do not have the dmg in front of me - but the guideline of treating a mental boost as twice as valuable is my measurement. W/out the book in front of me, it is hard to debate this point. We will have to disagree with the language issue. The real question, I think, is speak with plant a 1st level spell in your opinion, artificially raised in level? If you feal it is, then your suggested ability is fair for your game. IMO & world - speak with plants is definitly high end magic and very useful - it is worth the 3rd/4th lv slot it occupies. [COLOR=Red]Well, lets compare (and no copping out this time) You've stated my races abilities...now lets compare to some of the others..[/COLOR] Well - this is how I compare races. Another system is Upperkrusts - we rate powers differently, though our end results are very similar. Use either of our systems - or the savage species - to get a feal for your race. Also - post your race on another board - see if you get a different response then mine. Take the average of the opinions... Races should come to 4.5 or less +2 +2 physical or mental statistic -1 -2 mental statistic vs physical stat bonus -1 -2 physical statistic vs mental stat bonus -2 -2 statistic vs same type stat bonus +/-1 +/- 10’ move, Base MV: M & L 30’, S 20’ +1/4 skills available as class skills do to race (each) +1/4 each +1 to a skill roll +1/2 low light vision +1 dark vision 30’ +3/2 dark vision 60’ +1/4 reduce vision or hearing penalty for range in ½ +1/4 extra language known -1/2 no race class +1/4* 2 race classes +1/2 Any race class (per humans) +3/2 4+HD SR +1/4 4 SR +1 up to 10 (so SR 10+HD = +3) +1/2 10 SR +1 up to 15 (so SR 15+HD = 5½) +1 10’ clumsy flight +1/2 every +10’ or 1 step up in flight quality +1 spell like ability, 1st level, 1/day OR know 2 0th level, use 2+(INT mod)/day +1/2 each additional use +1 each LV the spell is higher level +1/4 natural attack, d4 or less +1* treat one size larger for grapple, trip, and bull-rush. +1 scent +1/4 able to take one or more MM feats +1 natural armor - per point +1/4 each additional form available. +1/2 creature type provides immunity (giant, fey) +3/2 as above but excellent immunity (undead) +3/4* +4 SP at 1st +1 SP each level > 1st +2* extra feat at 1st, choice from list of 10+ feats +1/2 +2 save Vs (poison & disease) or (enchantments), (death effects), (compulsion) +1/4 +2 save Vs (Language) +0 Last extra day w/out food prior penalty +0 Hold breath as if CON = CON+2 +1 use of any 1 martial weapon (exotic if w all martial) +1* +1 HP at 1st LV, Minimum of 2 HP/LV +3/4 Heal 50% more HP/day of rest +3/4 +1 saves Vs (magic) or (non-magic) -1/4 Run is x3 unless on all fours (free action to get on all fours, move action to rise) -1/2 Unable to run unless on all fours (as above) *May only be taken once Modifier for stat adjustment: modifiers for physical or mental (STR,DEX,CON or INT, WIS, CHA), including all bonus or minus, but not both at once, that equal or exceed 3 points, are further adjusted by 50% in the worst direction. Example below +1 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON bonus 1+2 = 3, so 2+1x1.5 = 3.5 penalty –2 = -2 total is 3.5-2 = 1.5 cost +3 INT, -1 WIS, -2 CHA bonus 3 so 2+1x1.5 = 3.5 penalty –1 –2 = -3, so –2 -1x 0.5 = -2.5 Combine both modifiers onto same creature total 3.5 – (2.5, cut in ½, phy vs mental) = 2.25 cost Why: high bonuses are hard to offset and allow abuse in a specialty class or ability focus. The races come out to HUMANS 2.75 DWARVES 7.25 ELVES 4.75 GNOMES 5.5 HALF-ELVES 3.5 HALF-ORCS 1.5 HALFLINGS 3.5 [/QUOTE]

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