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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 2337244" data-attributes="member: 5777">I've seen arguements both ways, so it has always felt like more of a wash. It completely depends on what class you are playing and what all of the said bonuses are and what you are comparing it to.Still though, I feel that the +8 str of the halfdragon alone trumps just about all of this guy, let alone the other bonuses he gets. But he has some 'major' paper tiger syndrome early on and other big issues later. He really isnt very well balanced over all.Now, most races with extra hd and LA start off much weaker and then sometimes almost catch up in some ways later on, or the overall difference becomes less noticeable. This guy, as I have shown, starts off effectively even, but no one has shown that it is not the case later on. Still waiting <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Less of an issue sure, but still there. Always in the background being just a little behind pretty much everywhere. The only thing special about them really is that they have 2 +2's, no -2's and resistance to energy in 3 places. Likely the two best classes to play with this guy are paladin and cleric. So, with using one of the best choices he is still behind in nearly every way. Early on potentially fatally so, later on in a whole lot of little ways. More than 1/3 of the time the bonus to saves isnt there, behind by a feat 1/3 of the time, by a stat point 1/4 of the time, 1 point off of all skills, BAB, HP, etc. From a power perspective, not roleplaying as that is a completely different beast, the majority of the time I'd rather play the human.Of course, I have been asking people to give other builds from the start. So, it isnt 'my' flaw <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Also, if you are talking about how I said that one had the advantage over the other even though they had the same total for a specific class setup then I would question why you think my conclusion there was incorrect. As the simpler example shows (one class with a feat and 5 choices while another with a feat and 2 choices which are a subset of the 5) the first guy definately has the edge. It may not be huge, but it opens up a wider variety of choices so different builds, different options, and more of each. This guy has a lot of flavor along with him, although it isnt the kind people are used to. But, flavor isnt terribly important (rather, unimportant) to a balance discussion.The race I posted above tend to be very tall but have builds which are not set to take advantage of that. They are superior in stats to a number of races which drives them to be arrogent and think that everyone else is a lesser race. All of them have a psionic bend to them and their society is based around it, however not all memebers are of psionic classes. Just because someone has some pp and some psionic feats does not force them to go into psionic classes, even favored class does not push this. In fact, they are perfectly capable of going out into other classes.So yes, they can have nonsteriotypical memebers, as does everyone. Nothing there prevents it or even pushes the other way. They have no huge stat penalties to exclude any class, only one of their features deals with being a psionic class directly and it is fairly minor and only works with quite a few levels in specific classes with specific power choices which basically points to more flavor without them needing to take advantage of it at all, and the psionic feats can help most classes if chosen properly.I dont see how it is pushing any more than any other race, in fact it pushes a lot less than some in the core.Unfortunately, a lot of the psionic things were balanced on the scale of, 'if we make it actually balanced with other races then people will cry it is broken, so we will purposefully make it slightly weaker so people cannot complain'. Or at least that is how it seems to me. Case in point: Blue.I am attempting to look at the whole picture. However, when comparing races most people agree that the human is a good standard for LA +0, hence why I tend to use it in comparisons. Other races tend to heavily favor certain steriotypes or at least not work very well with certain builds. The human tends to wash all of this out, assuming that feat choices allow.The paper tiger syndrome is more of a, 'incredibly strong offense, incredibly weak defense'. At fourth level for the halfdragon this is so paramount that you simply cannot play one without expecting to die a horrible death. To me, that screams imbalance. Some might try to say, 'but in 15 levels it actually becomes somewhat ok in certain areas!', but that does not fly with me. Tacking enough levels onto something to try to mask the problem is no good, fix the problem and you wont have to make exceptions.Now, where this race fits in is that at level 3, as I posted above, it seems equal. Maybe later on it becomes horribly abusive, no one has shown that yet. But, for not, this race is more balanced than the halfdragon simply because it is not a death sentence to use from the beginning. How do halfdragons even get high enough level to leave behind this major problem? It is just swept under the rug I guess.Still though, racial hd cost just as many levels as LA does. It just provides a much smoother transition. Although I think most people simply see the racial hd as not a detriment somehow and would like to see a massive number in LA, which would turn any race into a waste of paper. The racial hd is a psuedo LA already since it cuts into class levels which delays higher level abilities/combinations. It is a cost that keeps on costing all the way up, same as LA.Comparing in your head with no basis that I can see is as helpful to me as if I was just talking to the wall here. What I disagree with is making spot calls with no backing that I can see.It could very well be that you have a long list of determining factors and go through many different permutations to come to your conclusions, but without my being able to see them I dont know which are conditional on what and whether or not I agree with the pieces.Maybe you are completely right, but how am I supposed to know? How am I supposed to work with, 'well, I wouldnt use it, try this completely different thing instead'?Nifft may very well be good at working with people to flesh things out, but his comment here was completely unhelpful. It did not help to flesh anything out, it did not give any reasons, all it did was make a couple of snide comments and overreact without anything useful. He might as well have just come in and spouted random sylables and left for all the good it did. If it isnt 'worth his time' to even try then it shouldnt be 'worth his time' to even make the post.Actual data I can work with. Helpful pointers about what might be a problem can be a good start, but I need some meat to chew on, now just thoughts about how it might be overpowered if you think about it doing certain things that may happen at some point in an etheral future.1st level psion with overchannel and talented expends focus (effectively 1/battle at best at this point) to raise his manifestor level by 1. So he spent both of his feats and focus to try to get closer to what the other guy could do, even though he has less than half the total pp and less than half the total powers known.Still sounds pretty far behind to me.Note again that this does not bear out according to the examples I have given. Do you have some other examples somewhere?I'm afraid that the numbers just arent with you here. The examples say differently.And I appreciate it, I just need something I can work with more than gut feelings. ;/ Actual numbers help me much, much more. Comparison builds would be best, preferably as generic as possible.As the above showed with your comments on overchannel, sometimes people can base their gut reactions on things that arent true, which is why the reasonings need to be written out.</blockquote>

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