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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 2339835" data-attributes="member: 5777">I'll post without quoting too much to save some space.Arkhandus, I was not the first to throw stones, but you are right in that I should not have responded to it. Still, if you go into a hospital and ask for help and someone pokes you in the eye and tells you to get out how would you respond? Not exactly the same level here of course, but close enough. I now remember why I rarely come to the boards, there are a few very nice people surrounded by a mass of rudeness waiting to well up at a moments notice. Ahh well..As for larger ability score boosts being worth more than multiple small ones there are a few ways to look at it.First, it is easier to min/max. Bigger numbers generally = bigger boom. Not always, but having a +6 to str is 'much' easier to max out than a +2 str, +2 dex, +2 con.Second, looking at point buy. Higher stats tend to cost more, sometimes much more. Shifting from a 16 to a 20, while only being a +2 on the modifier, is 'much' more impressive than two 16's to 18's. (point buy equivelance of 28 vs 12 for the bonus shifts)Thirdly, having multiple smaller stats some are more likely to be less than useful for your build. This is why something like the 'belt of magnificence' costs as little as it does. While it is very useful most classes can only make real use of about 3 of the stats on it with some peripherals here and there. Fourth, looking at enhancement bonuses. These scale up quadratically. +2 = 4k, +4 = 16k, +6 = 36k. Two +2's are 8k, or if you want to go with one item that does both then 12k, still less than the +4. (inherant bonuses are an exception to this rule, mainly I think because of the huge, huge cost behind them to begin with, also with their assumed rarity and need to place them all at once, if you already have a +2 inherant and want a +3 you have to pay full price for the +3)Fifth, looking at other bonuses in the game they work the same way. Having a +1 ring of protection isnt half as much as a +2 ring of protection.Sixth, skill focus vs +2/+2. +3 to a single skill vs +2 to two skills. The single bonus is generally considered to be better (especially from a min/max point of view).With this, and likely other factors I have forgotten to mention, I think it is reasonable to say that a higher bonus tends to be better than multiple lower ones.Had to quote this one. Tell the wilder that him having 1 power vs the psions 3 'isnt a big deal'. Tell the character who has 1 round of duration instead of 3 that it 'isnt a big deal'.Plus, putting on a +1 LA would shift this to a manifestor level of 3, which I assume is why you put the 2-3 in. Now at 2 we are looking at missing 2 - 5 powers, at three we are looking at 3 - 7 powers, that is a 'huge' shift in versitility and overall power. Not to mention the additional loss of duration, dispel resistance, and SR penetration. That is a big hurt, and definately not a 'no biggie' in any stretch of the imagination.These are things that will crop up every single encounter and likely multiple times per encounter. As for the half giant however, he is an odd beast. For this comparison mainly because he is only LA vs a guy who had HD.Still though, lets check:Human psychic warrior 3Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (avg 20)Initiative: +1Abilities: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 8Armor Class: 19 (+8 full plate, +1 dex), touch 11, flat-footed 18 Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+4 Attack: Greatsword (2d6+3 19-20/x2, +4), Mighty +2 Composite Longbow (d8+2 20/x3, +3)Skills: 18 skill points from psychic warrior listSaves: Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +3 Feats: 3 any feats, 2 psychic warrior feats (fighter + psychic)PP: 6Powers: 3 1st level powersManifestor level: 3Half-giant psychic warrior 2Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (avg 16.5)Initiative: +0Abilities: Str 16, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 8Armor Class: 18 (+8 full plate), touch 10, flat-footed 18 Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+8 Attack: Large Greatsword (3d6+4 19-20/x2, +4), Mighty +3 Large Composite Longbow (2d6+3 20/x3, +1)Skills: 10 skill points from psychic warrior listSaves: Fort +5, Ref +0, Will +2 Feats: 1 any feat, 2 psychic warrior feats (fighter + psychic)PP: 4Powers: 2 1st level powersManifestor level: 2Special: Low light vision, fire acclimation, powerful build, psionic stomp 1/dayNow, while the half-giant does 'way' more damage on a swing than the human (avg of 10 for the human and 14.5 for the halfgiant) I would 'much' rather play the human. Many more options, more hp, better BAB, almost twice as many skill points, generally better saves, more feats, more pp, more powers, higher manifestor level. There really wouldnt be much of a choice for me power wise, which breaks the acid test.For higher levels:Human psychic warrior 20Hit Dice: 20d8+20 (avg 113.5)Initiative: +1Abilities: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 8 (all 5 points to wisdom)Armor Class: 19 (+8 full plate +1 dex), touch 11, flat-footed 18 Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+17 Attack: Greatsword (2d6+3 19-20/x2, +17), Mighty +2 Composite Longbow (d8+2 20/x3, +16)Skills: 69 skill points from psychic warrior listSaves: Fort +13, Ref +7, Will +11 Feats: 8 any feats, 8 psychic warrior feats (fighter + psychic)PP:  177 = 127 (base) + 50 (stat)Powers: 20 psychic warrior powersManifestor level: 20Halfgiant psychic warrior 19Hit Dice: 19d8+38 (avg 127)  (13.5 more)Initiative: +0Abilities: Str 16, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 8 (all 5 points to wisdom)Armor Class: 18 (+8 full plate), touch 11, flat-footed 18 Base Attack/Grapple: +14/+21 Attack: Greatsword (3d6+3 19-20/x2, +17), Mighty +2 Composite Longbow (2d6+2 20/x3, +14)Skills: 44 skill points from psychic warrior listSaves: Fort +13, Ref +6, Will +11 Feats: 7 any feats, 7 psychic warrior feats (fighter + psychic)PP:  164 = 115 (base) + 47 (stat) +2 (racial)Powers: 19 psychic warrior powersManifestor level: 19Special: Low light vision, fire acclimation, powerful build, psionic stomp 1/dayhere is the comparison at level 20. I am not sure under what conditions I would really want to play the halfgiant.. maybe if I was going for surpreme grappler and there was only a very limited number of grappling feats to be had.The overall differences of human vs halfgiant here are:Pros for halfgiant: 13.5 more hp, +4 grapple, +d6 weapon damage, low light vision, fire acclimation, psionic stomp 1/dayPros for human: AC +1, initiative +1, BAB +1, +2 attack on ranged, 25 more skill points, reflex +1, 1 any feat, 1 psychic warrior feat, 13 more pp, 1 more 6th level psychic warrior power, 1 more manifestor levelOut of those I feel these are the most important:Halfgiant: 13.5 hp, +4 grapple, +d6 weapon damage, low light visionHuman: +1 AC, 25 more skill points, 1 any feat, 1 psychic warrior feat, 13 more pp, 1 more 6th level power, 1 more manifestor levelI dont feel that this is particularly even. Depending on how often grapple comes up in your games you might disagree however. But then if the human used his 25 more skill points to help get out of the grapple, or his feats to be better or avoid it, or his 20 pp to win somehow, or his extra power to do something about it.. ::shrugs:: If it is a choice of 'which would be picked more often given this comparison' the halfgiant loses big time.Which brings me to the point. If I feel there is little reason to pick the halfgiant in this comparison why compare the halfgiant to the Kri'Loroth? The halfgiant has already been shown to be inferior, trying to be even with something inferior seems odd.Still, at low levels the halfgiant would have basically the same thing. He can hit much harder and he'll be ahead by a level of psychic warrior.Kri'Loroth psychic warrior 1Hit Dice: 3d8+6 (avg 23) Initiative: +2Abilities: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 10 Armor Class: 18 (+8 full plate, +1 dex, -1 size), touch 10, flat-footed 17Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+4 Attack: Greatsword (2d6+4 19-20/x2, +3), Mighty +3 Composite Longbow (d8+3 20/x3, +2) Skills: 15 skill points for base race skills ,3 skill points from psychic warrior list Saves: Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +6 Feats: 2 any feats, 1 psychic warrior feats (fighter + psychic), 2 psionic featsPP: 4 Powers: 1 1st level power Manifestor level: 1Special: Low light vision, psi-abilityHalf-giant psychic warrior 2Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (avg 16.5) (worse by 6.5)Initiative: +0 (worse by 2)Abilities: Str 16, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 8 (worse)Armor Class: 18 (+8 full plate), touch 10, flat-footed 18  (same, same, better)Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+8 (same, better)Attack: Large Greatsword (3d6+4 19-20/x2, +4), Mighty +3 Large Composite Longbow (2d6+3 20/x3, +1) (better to hit and much better on damage for melee, worse to hit but much better on damage to ranged)Skills: 10 skill points from psychic warrior list (worse, mainly just from sheer numbers however)Saves: Fort +5, Ref +0, Will +2 (better, worse, worse)Feats: 1 any feat, 2 psychic warrior feats (fighter + psychic) (worse)PP: 4 (same)Powers: 2 1st level powers (better)Manifestor level: 2 (better)Special: Low light vision, fire acclimation, powerful build, psionic stomp 1/day (at this level, better)So, much like the human, if you want to do a lot of damage early on the halfgiant is the way to go. Definately over all worse however, unless you are going for a grappler again.The halfgiant has 6.5 less hp, 2 less initiative, 1 more flatfooted ac, +4 grapple, 3.5 more average damage for the dice in melee, +1 to hit in melee, 2.5 more average damage for the dice for ranged, -1 to hit with ranged, 15 less skill points to the racial Kri'Loroth (well duh), 7 more psychic warrior skill points, +1 fort, -2 reflex, -4 will, 1 less any feat, 1 more psychic warrior feat, 2 less psionic feats, 1 more first level power, 1 more manifestor level.If what you care about is hitting hard and/or grappling then halfgiant is for you. If not then Kri'Loroth is better.Kri'Loroth psychic warrior 18Hit Dice: 20d8+40 (avg 133.5) Initiative: +2Abilities: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 22, Cha 10 (all 5 points into wisdom)Armor Class: 18 (+8 full plate, +1 dex, -1 size), touch 10, flat-footed 17Base Attack/Grapple: +14/+17 Attack: Greatsword (2d6+3 19-20/x2, +16), Mighty +3 Composite Longbow (d8+3 20/x3, +15) Skills: 15 skill points for base race skills, 54 skill points from psychic warrior list Saves: Fort +13, Ref +8, Will +15 Feats: 7 any feats, 7 psychic warrior feats (fighter + psychic), 2 psionic featsPP: 177 = 103 (base) + 20 (racial) + 54 (stat)Powers: 18 psychic warrior powers Manifestor level: 18Special: Low light vision, psi-abilityHalfgiant psychic warrior 19Hit Dice: 19d8+38 (avg 127)  (6.5 less)Initiative: +0Abilities: Str 16, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 8 (all 5 points to wisdom)Armor Class: 18 (+8 full plate ), touch 11, flat-footed 18 Base Attack/Grapple: +14/+21 Attack: Greatsword (3d6+3 19-20/x2, +17), Mighty +2 Composite Longbow (2d6+2 20/x3, +14)Skills: 44 skill points from psychic warrior listSaves: Fort +13, Ref +6, Will +11 Feats: 7 any feats, 7 psychic warrior feats (fighter + psychic)PP:  164 = 115 (base) + 47 (stat) +2 (racial)Powers: 19 psychic warrior powersManifestor level: 19Special: Low light vision, fire acclimation, powerful build, psionic stomp 1/daySo the half giant has differences as follows:6.5 less hp, 2 less initiative, +4 grapple, +d6 melee weapon damage, +1 to hit in melee, +2.5 avg dice damage in ranged, -1 to hit in ranged, 15 less skill points from Kri'Loroth racial list, 10 less skill points from psychic warrior list, 2 less reflex, 4 less will, 2 less psionic feats, 13 less pp, 1 more psychic warrior power of level 6, 1 more manifestor level.Actually more even than I thought it would be.So, considering the comparison between the human, halfgiant, and Kri'Loroth the human is generally better than the half giant except in gross damage output per hit and grappling, the Kri'Loroth is better than the half giant except in the same way.So let me get this straight. Only being able to really use one of these feats in a round at a given time is ok? Even though that is only after spending yet another feat just to be able to do so, making a skill check, possibly provoking an aoo, and even then you cant use more than one of any of them in a given round without spending at least 2 other feats?Psionic focus is a 'major' drawback. Brushing it off lightly is just a bad move. Try telling the high level fighter that his weapon specialization now does more damage, but it is only useable once per round, and only that if he spends yet another feat and cant take full round attacks ever if he wants to do it. Which is better then?At low levels, sure, you have a 1/battle ability (spending a full round action and then failing your concentration check sucks, believe me) that can be impressive. Of course, if you spend focus and miss on that attack then you basically have a wasted feat slot for that battle.They are certainly not more powerful than normal feats. In fact, given their inherant limitations, especially at high level, I would consider them much weaker.As another example, remember your mage guy? He picks up spell penetration because sometimes his spells are resisted and he doesnt like it. The psion thinks the same thing, but then remembers that if he uses it he cant use any other metapsionic feats or any other feats that require focus, he also must pick up psychic meditation, make a skill check, and even after all of that if he doesnt know whether or not the enemy has SR he has to guess. Whereas the mage never thinks about it again, he always adds it and doesnt worry. For all of that headache the psion gets double the bonus when he actually does use it, poor compensation considering the hassle.Not every feat is created equal. Plus, what if people disagree on how many feats something is worth? How much is an 'any' feat worth? a wizards bonus feat? a psionic feat? one of the monks choices of two feats? If they are all worth 'one feat' then something is wrong with the feat equivalency system.. but then if you say that some are worth 'more than one feat' then there is another problem, catch 22.There are just too many inherant problems with such a system. One person says that str is worth 4 feats and another says it is worth 2 feats. Who is right? How can one even tell? They both have their reasons and each makes sense, so maybe you put a range on it, or say it is relative to class, or say it is relative to race, or both, or something else entirely. Now we have a problem. If we give it a range (say, 2 -4) then by the end we have something like 40 -120 for a given race. Huge error bars. Each person will wind up having completely different numbers.It strikes me the same as the point equivalence that people were trying to put various races and classes to. Everyone had a different idea of how much each thing was worth so the point values were horribly skewed and unreliable.For the comparisons I have done I have tried to line up all of the things that are the same as closely as possible and then list out all of the differences. Now, while people can still say, 'well, I feel that initiative is god, so any bonus to that trumps all others', but at least we have an easy reference comparison point of everything boiled down. I just dont see your feat equivilancy system ever doing that. Especially as there are many, many things which feats simply do not cover and you would have to make guesses which could wind up being wildly inaccurate for actual use (how many feats is a point of BAB worth for example, how many antifeats is having the -1 to ac for being large, do we use toughness or improved toughness as a benchmark and why? the list goes on and on).Now, I am going to ignore the rest of your post because it is a whole lot of complaining, ranting, and general nastiness.</blockquote>

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