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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Azurecrusader" data-source="post: 2341629" data-attributes="member: 24071">Be wary, as with most other posts in this thread, this one is quite long.Kri'Loroth• 2 Racial hd (aberration)• +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha: Kri'Loroth are made to be good at what they do (and it helps to make up for having few of the large size benefits)• Large Sized• Weak Build (opposite of powerful build, functions in most ways as though they are medium size)• Low Light Vision (instead of darkvision)• Psychic Voice: The Kri'Loroth psychic ability allows them to create a voice as a normal creature with vocal cords. Covering their entire head will block sound in a normal fashion.• Naturally Psionic: +1 PP/hd• Psi Ability: Whenever manifesting metaphysical weapon or inertial armor the Kri'Loroth powerful natural talent kicks in and pays for up to 2 points of augmentation for free (this cannot go above the normal maximum for augmentation). Every 4 levels of a psionic class the Kri'Loroth may pick another defensive power to gain this ability as well.• Automatic Languages: Kri'Loroth, Common, Bonus Languages: Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal (Kri'Loroth often search for their origin and have constant exposure to unearthly languages)• 2 Bonus psionic feats• Favored class: Any psionic classI thought that I would take a look at your race a little differently than putting together builds, which you feel justify your class and others feel show its problems.  Instead, let’s look at each adjustment and its goals.2 Racial HD:  A supposed balancing tool, we’ll come back to this to see how well it works at the end.+2 stats across the board:  This indicates that relative to a human (the base) that the Kri'Loroth are better in every aspect.  When looking at other standard races (aside from human) we can see that this is not generally the accepted way to create a PC race.  On it’s own it seems over powered, but we will look at it in total later.Large Size / Weak Build:  Let’s look at these together.  You claim that flavor has nothing to do with balance, but here are two flavor aspects that you have used to try and balance your race.  STOP, let me finish before you respond.  Large size can be both a benefit and weakness, completely dependent on the type of campaign and the general theme of the world.  If most of the adventuring takes place in human built dungeons, being large will inevitable cause problems.  On the other hand, being large really doesn’t affect gameplay that much if your campaign takes place primarily outdoors.  However, you have taken Large size and “balanced” it with Weak Build.  This is in direct contradiction to the stat bonuses that you have given.  If the Kri'Loroth are of “Weak Build” then why do they have a +2 Str and +2 Con?  Are you trying to say that +2 Str & Con are not good enough for a large creature and therefore, +2 is actually “weak”?  This argument doesn’t fly with me.  So basically Large size and Weak Build boil down to flavor choices and since you yourself said that flavor should not influence balancing, these two attributes cannot be considered while looking at the overall race balance.  Low Light Vision instead of Darkvision:  Hmmm, a drawback because aberrations normally have Darkvision?  That’s a poor excuse for a drawback.  No, instead we compare them as “just another race” to humans.  Low Light Vision is a benefit over a human, thus it adds to the list of benefits.Psychic Voice:  This again is a flavor element.  We will not consider it when looking at balance.Naturally Psionic: +1 PP/hd:  This is the first feature that pigeonholes the Kri'Loroth into a class.  You could say that this is a drawback because it is a useless ability if the character is not of a Psionic class, but it does not adversely affect a Kri'Loroth who plays any other class.  You will notice that the PP addition for races in EPH is a flat rate at first level.  While the Kri'Loroth have a low addition per hd, they still get 1 PP per hd, making this ability more powerful than the Naturally Psionic races presented in EPH.  Psi Ability:  Here again the Kri'Loroth have an advantage over the races presented in the EPH.  Those races get a flat benefit that they can manifest a certain number of times per day.  The Kri'Loroth gain their benefit whenever they use certain powers and can add to that power list based upon their level.  Automatic Languages:  Flavor, I’ll ignore it.2 Bonus Psionic Feats:  This again tells us that the Kri'Loroth are meant to be pigeonholed into a specific set of classes.  What this also tells us is that within those classes the Kri'Loroth are at least as adaptable as humans.  The problem with this ability is two fold.  First, it detracts from the human.  If I am choosing a psionic class, I now have very little reason to even consider a human character.  Second, with the already extensive list of benefits that the Kri'Loroth get, this is adding yet another “over the top” ability.  You have claimed that Psionic Feats are not as good as the vast array of feats that a human gets, but within the confines of a psionic class, this argument is false.  And since you have geared this race towards those classes, this must be considered solely a benefit.Favored Class:  Any Psionic Class:  Although I would say this is at least partially flavor, it is once again more than any race presented in the EPH or PHB.  What we are left with is a race that has essentially no non-flavor drawbacks and a veritable mountain of benefits.  You have worked out a number of scenarios showing what you believe to be perfect balance in your race, but I would say that every example that you have presented has shown the Kri'Loroth to be a superior choice.  The “drawbacks” that you point out are not the sort of character determining drawbacks that a present between a choice of human and elf for instance.  You can go on and on about how the stats look balanced, but what you aren’t looking at is:  Why would someone choose to play a human (or Half-Giant or Githzerai or etc) over a Kri'Loroth?  As it stands now, those choices would mostly be made on the basis of flavor, which as you have said plenty of times, we cannot consider in balance.  Therefore I would say that the Kri'Loroth will win nearly every choice.  Thus my GUT feeling that this race is overpowered for a general *PC* race.  Its one balancing aspect is the 2 racial hd.  In *my opinion* this, by itself, does not balance out the benefits.  Unlike others, I would *not* suggest a level adjustment, rather you simply need to adjust some of the benefits and perhaps add some different drawbacks into the mix.  If, however, you wish to disregard this argument, there is nothing that I can do to stop you.  If you truly want to fine tune the Kri'Loroth, you MUST be willing to look critically at what you have created, and not simply defend it against all comers.  There are people who have posted here who have been less than constructive, but even those who have offered real arguments and demonstrations meet with your wrath.  You have not made a lot of friends with this discussion and your attitude of “respond in kind” is immature at best.  If your real goal with this post is to get feedback on this race, then you should not demand “proof” at every turn.  People are presenting where they think the race fails, it is up to you to test these ideas out and decide whether or not they are valid.  So far, you have been unwilling to truly put the Kri'Loroth to the test (and by “the test” I do not simply mean thowing together some comparisons) and you have been unwilling to accept the mere idea that there *may* be problems with what you have created.  Open up a little.  Maybe the Kri'Loroth work for you, but if you want other people to accept them as well (is that a goal of yours?) it is clear that it will take some work, and not simply a defense.Finally, let me present the adjustments I might make:Kri'Loroth• 2 Racial hd (aberration)• -2 Strength, -2 Constitution, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha• Large Sized• Weak Build (opposite of powerful build, functions in most ways as though they are medium size)• Low Light Vision (instead of darkvision)• Psychic Voice: The Kri'Loroth psychic ability allows them to create a voice as a normal creature with vocal cords. Covering their entire head will block sound in a normal fashion.• Naturally Psionic: 2 bonus PP at 1st level. • Psi Ability: 3/day: metaphysical weapon or inertial armor.  The Kri'Loroth powerful natural talent kicks in and pays for up to 2 points of augmentation for free (this cannot go above the normal maximum for augmentation). Every 4 hd the Kri'Loroth may pick another defensive power to add to this list.  Manifester level is equal to ½ hd (min 1).• Automatic Languages: Kri'Loroth, Common, Bonus Languages: Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal (Kri'Loroth often search for their origin and have constant exposure to unearthly languages)• 1 Bonus psionic feats• Favored class: Any 1 psionic class (chosen at character creation) I do not claim that this is perfect, but I believe that it is a start without upsetting the flavor that you were trying to go for.</blockquote>

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