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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 2357068" data-attributes="member: 5777">The hd are a drawback, they just arent as much of a drawback as LA. You are right though, they do give some bonuses to the guy.I have always felt that LA was a bit too much of a stopgap issue, it tends to create problems. Using racial hd and delaying the biggest bonuses till later levels to be really effective means that the character has much less of a 'gap', allowing for a smoother transition.Lets say that we made this guy +2 LA with no racial hd as someone suggested earlier, that would mean that he could not be played at level 1 really, he would just die too easily. Even at later levels they still sting, being 2 points behind in every skill can be huge (it even delays synergy bonuses by 2 levels).What do you think would be the problem with adding an extra racial hd? I'd prefer to add in a little extra beanie for the cost (maybe change to darkvision or an extra good save) but if it was just flat one more hd of aberration how do you think that would adjust things?The general balance that I see would look like this:Kri'LorothLarge AbberationHit Dice: 3d8+6 (avg 23)Abilities: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 10Armor Class: 11 ( +2 dex, -1 size), touch 11, flat-footed 9 Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+5 Reach: 5'Attack: Quarterstaff (d6+4 19-20/x2, +4), Heavy Crossbow (d10 20/x3, +3) Skills: 18 skill points for base race skillsSaves: Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +6Feats: 2 any feats, 2 psionic feats PP: 0Powers: 0Manifestor level: 0Special: Low light vision vsHuman psychic warrior 3Medium HumanoidHit Dice: 3d8+3 (avg 20)Abilities: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 8Armor Class: 21 (+8 full plate, +2 heavy steel shield, +1 dex), touch 11, flat-footed 20 Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+4 Reach: 5'Attack: Longsword (d8+2 19-20/x2, +4), Mighty +2 Composite Longbow (d8+2 20/x3, +3)Skills: 18 skill points from psychic warrior listSaves: Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +3 Feats: 3 any feats, 2 psychic warrior feats (fighter + psychic)PP: 6Powers: 3 1st level powersManifestor level: 3For the comparison the Kri'Loroth has 3 more hp, way worse ac (no armor prof), 1 better ini, 1 better in grapple, +1/+1.5 better in damage in melee, 1 less damage in ranged, worse skill point selection, +1 fort, +1 reflex, +3 will, 1 less any feat, 2 less psychic warrior feats, 2 more psionic feats, 6 less pp, 3 less first level powers, 3 less manifestor levels.Now, this is with a hd instead of the extra LA (the hd is inargueably better than a point of LA). Do you feel that these are equivalent choices?I will assume that you do not, but that you feel at higher levels it will even out. If this is incorrect please let me know the how and why <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Kri'Loroth Psychic Warrior 17Hit Dice: 20d8+40 (avg 133.5)Abilities: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 22, Cha 10 (5 points into wis)Armor Class: 21 (+8 full plate, +2 heavy steel shield, +2 dex, -1 size), touch 11, flat-footed 19 Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+15 Reach: 5'Attack: Longsword (d8+3 19-20/x2, +14), Mighty +3 Composite Longbow (d8+3 20/x3, +13) Skills: 18 skill points for base race skills, 51 psychic warrior skill pointsSaves: Fort +12, Ref +7, Will +14Feats: 7 any feats, 2 psionic feats, 7 psychic warrior feats (fighter + psionic) PP: 159Powers: 17 psychic warrior powers of up to 6th level (2 6th max)Manifestor level: 17Special: Low light vision, weak build, psi-ability (metaphysical and inertial armor +4 more defensive powers) vsHuman psychic warrior 20Hit Dice: 20d8+20 (avg 113.5)Abilities: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 8 (5 points into wis)Armor Class: 21 (+8 full plate, +2 heavy steel shield, +1 dex), touch 11, flat-footed 20 Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+17 Reach: 5'Attack: Longsword (d8+2 19-20/x2, +17), Mighty +2 Composite Longbow (d8+2 20/x3, +16)Skills: 69 skill points from psychic warrior listSaves: Fort +13, Ref +7, Will +12 Feats: 8 any feats, 8 psychic warrior feats (fighter + psychic)PP: 177Powers: 20 psychic warrior powers up to 6th level (5 6th)Manifestor level: 20I see the differences as this: The Kri'Loroth has 20 more hp, 1 less flatfooted, 1 more ini, 3 less BAB, 2 less grapple, +1/+1.5 damage melee, -3 to hit melee, +1 damage ranged, -3 to hit ranged, worse skill list for 18 points (I realize there is some issue here about how major of an issue it is, but it is a detriment, if slight), 1 less fort, 2 more will, 1 less any feat, 1 less psychic warrior feat, 2 more psionic feats, 18 less pp (this gap gets larger with stat boosting items), 3 less 6th level powers, 3 less manifestor levels, low light vision, weakbuild, psi ability.(hopefully I didnt miss anything in the above ;/ )From my point of view the psychic warrior is a primary combatant. Having the extra -3 to all attack rolls along with less combatant feat choice (this last part is debateable, but nearly all of the psionic feats that are useful as a combatant require expending focus, which basically means only one attack per round) makes for a much lesser choice.3 less 6th level powers means less choice and variety.3 less manifestor levels means your powers are much easier to dispel (15% more likely, with a 20th level manifestor and some work a psychic warrior could make his powers unable to be dispelled by a caster/manifestor with a caster/manifestor level of 20 or less, this guy starts at 15% and goes up from there).As far as what he actually has over the human it comes down to +20 hp, +1 ini, +1 damage, +2 will, low light vision, and psi-ability. In pretty much everything else he is behind, and sometimes very far behind indeed.Given the choice between the two at this level which would seem more powerful? Under most circumstances which would you choose? (nonrp circumstances of course, with rp choices I have seen people play pet rocks who could take no actions at all <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> )This is what it looks like with a +1 hd 'instead' of the +1 LA. With the LA the Kri'Loroth has 6.5 less hp, 1 less bab, 1 less to hit in melee, 1 less to hit in ranged, 1 less fort, 1 less reflex, and 3 less skill points.Being 4 points behind in to hit when they start off at medium to begin with seems pretty rough ;/ Basically puts them back down into the poor bab range for a primary combatant.You are right though, I didnt list +2 to each stat in the bonuses. This is because all it really matters for is stat damage at this point. It is a benefit, but so minor I havent even taken it into account. I can add it in if you feel it is a big deal <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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