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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 2357294" data-attributes="member: 5777">I actually ignored it because it kept on having things like the reach in there, even after I had said a couple of times that it didnt have it.I'll check it over now and fix the differences.The lizardfolk are an odd one as I said before. The +6 natural armor is 'huge'. At low levels it is a much, much larger benefit than the +2 to each stat. Maybe even at higher levels as well. If someone has a 50% chance to hit an equally decked out Kri'Loroth he has only a 15% chance to hit the Lizardfolk.This is an incredible ability. At low level it completely trumps the Kri'Loroths actual abilities in power. But, it is boring. Very boring. The Kri'Loroth can make for a much broader and more interesting character overall in this comparison, but that isnt important for actual race balance however.Then there are the 3 natural attacks. Like I said before, these can be a pretty major boon when everyone else only has one attack anyway. It even beats out the two handed sword in damage potential and that is without the extra +2 str that the race gets.They are much less important later in levels, but LA is there for beginning levels.These two things alone, without anything else taken into account about their race, I feel make them something you can give to a low level character (say, first level)You are right that I ignored most of the differences, but I thought I explained why pretty well. +6 extra natural armor at low level can make a guy go from 'hittable' to 'untouchable'. That is a big portion of why I feel it is the way that it is. Much like how the halfdragon is +3 LA, he has that +8 str floating around and having a first level guy walking around with a 32str just doesnt work out properly.I realize that you might feel the bonus for +6 natural armor isnt as big of a deal as I do, maybe this will help.If you were up against two characters, a human fighter and a lizardfolk fighter, both decked out in armor, which is more dangerous? The one with 1 attack a round and an AC of 18 or the one with 3 attacks in a round and an AC of 24? There are other things of course, I think that this helps show the examples a little though.Still though, if it was a choice between the lizardfolk and a human with 3 class levels which would you choose? I'd still go with the human in nearly every case, even with the bonus, because the human with class levels has so many more options. Which is basically the same thing you said about the Lizardfolk vs Kri'Loroth.The disadvantage must be described with class builds of course for a few reasons. First of all, it is really hard to compare a race with another when one has a different starting level. Secondly, LA is supposed to be based off of the best build possible to make the character. I feel that in this case it is the psychic warrior, almost entirely because of psionic body and the psychic warriors absolute dependence on combat powers. Thirdly, the racial hd and LA cut into later class abilities, which is one of the big problems later on. It slows down progression (as high level abilities tend to be stronger) and generally makes these abilities weaker (using hd or la with primary casters is incredibly difficult, animal companions who are weaker tend not to be able to help as much with combat as others, and on)I am not sure what you mean by extreme multiclassing builds being able to ignore the penalty. It seems to me that if they are going for a lot of classes then going for a race where they could get those extra levels sooner would be better for them. Especially as they would likely be going for a specific type of build and/or prc.Looking back over the fighter comparison now <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Kri'Loroth Fighter 18Large AbberationHD: 2d8+18D10+60 (avg 171.5)Init: +3AC: 12 (+2 dex, -1 size) (F:9, T: 12)BAB/Grapple: +19/+23Fort +14, Ref +9, Will +11Abilities: Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 10Speed: 30'Reach: 5'Melee: +22, +4 or 6 to damageRanged: +21Feats: 7 any, 10 fighter, 2 psionicSkills: 20 racial, 72 fighterPP: 20Special: Low light vision, weak buildHuman Fighter 20HD: 20D10+40 (154.5) (17 less)Init: +2 (1 less)AC: 12 (F:10, T: 12) (same, 1 more, same)BAB/Grapple: +20/+23 (1 more BAB)Fort +14, Ref +8, Will +7 (1 less reflex, 4 less will)Abilities: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8Size: MediumSpeed: 30'Reach: 5'Melee: +23, +3 or 4 to damage (+1 attack, -1/1.5 damage)Ranged: +22 (+1 to attack, -1 damage)Feats: 8 any, 11 fighter Skills: 92 fighterSo, the human has 17 less hp, 1 less ini, 1 more flatfooted ac, 1 more BAB, 1 less reflex, 4 less will, +1 to melee attack, -1/1.5 melee damage, +1 ranged attack, -1 ranged damage, 1 more any feat, 1 more fighter feat, 2 less psionic feats, different skill selection for 20 points (concentration doesnt help the fighter at all, knowledge (psionics) doesnt do much for him either, the biggest boon is autohypnosis, but during that time the fighter cant put many points into intimidate, handle animal, or ride, but that is more dependent on character concept)I think out of all of this the +4 to will save is the biggest bump for the Kri'Loroth over the human. Everything else washes out pretty well (+1 to attack is worth way, way more at this level than even a +2 to damage always on, optimal power attack use requires being able to use it only when chosen, there is no choice with how that is laid out right now, 1 more BAB means that at some levels the human is ahead on iterative attacks, the feat difference means that the human has a wider selection of choices and so access to more feat chains, being straight fighter means being able to get things like weapon specialization 2 levels earlier, etc).Definatley ahead, does +4 will warrant a +1 LA?If we give the Kri'Loroth a +1 LA then the above shifts to this:The human has 8.5 less hp, 1 less ini, 1 more flatfooted ac, 2 more BAB, 3 less will, +2 melee attack, -1/1.5 melee damage, +2 ranged attack, -1 ranged damage, 1 more any feat, 2 more fighter feat, 2 less psionic feats, 4 less skill points, different skill choice for 20 skill points.Now, in this one the human is way ahead. Way, way ahead <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />So, in one the Kri'Loroth is ahead by a pretty good margin, +4 will.In the other the human is way ahead (+3 will for the Kri'Loroth, but +2 attack, an extra feat, more skill points, and such definately trump that)What would you suggest to change to fix these to make them more even?</blockquote>

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