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<blockquote data-quote="The Sigil" data-source="post: 937346" data-attributes="member: 2013">I think you're either missing the point or side-stepping the question.&nbsp; The question was not about the &quot;cultural stability&quot; or &quot;social stability&quot; of your world.&nbsp; Leaders of men have nothing to do with the question at hand.I think the question of &quot;how do you provide stability to your world,&quot; was meant as, &quot;how do you provide moral consistency with no absolutes?&quot;&nbsp; Is the same action, carried out with the same motivations, ethical/moral in one geographic region and unethical/immoral in another?Whether or not you like the labels, &quot;good/evil/law/chaos,&quot; the question is a legitimate one - is there any sort of &quot;moral&quot; or &quot;ethical&quot; stability in your world - are there blacks and whites and shades of gray - or are all actions always equally gray?&nbsp; In a &quot;true&quot; moral relativist world, all actions are always equally gray... because the action itself means nothing.&nbsp; It becomes strictly a matter of DM Fiat to say, &quot;that is a good action&quot; and &quot;that is an evil action,&quot; and the DM can change his mind at whim.&nbsp; Players need to know that an action that is considered &quot;good&quot; at one time is considered good every time - if it changes, then there IS no moral stability.&nbsp; And that consideration is, for all intents and purposes, the Truth as it exists in your game world.&nbsp; Not in the real world, necessarily, and not in everyone else's world, but in YOUR game world.If a world that is one single monochromatic shade of moral gray is the world you play in, how then do you explain the existence of gods, clerics, paladins, outsiders, positive and negative energy, and a whole host of other things assumed in the system?&nbsp; These things rely on there being (at least) shades of gray, if not black and white.&nbsp; For the &quot;standard&quot; D&amp;D campaign, these issues are important.Finally, is a world where everything is the same shade of moral gray as compelling as a world where there are lighter and darker shades?&nbsp; I think not.&nbsp; A world where everything is the same shade of moral gray is a one-color world; that's even LESS compelling and has less potential for simulating realism than a world that has varying shades of gray - you can represent more with black and white than you can with just one shade of gray - and if, as I do, you believe that the D&amp;D system is not &quot;black and white&quot; but rather &quot;the whole spectrum of grays between black and white as well,&quot; you have a lot more opportunity for detail and thought.&nbsp; Of course, NEITHER of those is as good as &quot;full color,&quot; but as this is a game, and not reality, you really have no chance of getting &quot;full color.&quot; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />So in your world, gods create truth... is the truth created by the gods the Truth for your world then?&nbsp; Can your gods die/be killed/replaced - or even change their minds?&nbsp; If so, you are again reducing everything to the same shade of moral gray.&nbsp; If not, then you have a standard of Truth for your game world - and I'm not sure what you are complaining about the alignment system for, in that case, unless it is a dissatisfaction borne of trying to reconcile the alignment system with your Real-World beliefs.You see, I think the grid-like system is not as &quot;restrictive&quot; as you think.&nbsp; I know it's been discussed in the past, and I myself don't actually &quot;assign point values,&quot; but think of the alignment system as a number line... where -10 is absolute, pure evil and +10 is the whitest, purest good.&nbsp; The alignment system is not a &quot;grid&quot; so much as it is a &quot;line of demarcation&quot; along the spectrum... &quot;EVIL&quot; is not exactly -10, &quot;NEUTRAL&quot; is not exactly 0, and &quot;GOOD&quot; is not exactly +10.&nbsp; &quot;Good&quot; might describe anyone from +3.00000001 to +10, while &quot;Evil&quot; might describe anyone from -3.00000001 to -10, and &quot;Neutral&quot; is -3.0000000 to +3.0000000 - which means there are an infinite number of &quot;slightly different&quot; shades of neutral (or good or evil)... it's only when you cross from 3.000000 to 3.0000001 that you change alignments - at 3.00000 you are &quot;neutral with strong good tendencies,&quot; if you will.&nbsp; In the same way, we have many shades of red... and all of them are &quot;red&quot; - but not all of them are the same, &quot;red.&quot;I would like to see you give a little further elucidation of your system, but from what it seems to me, you are taking alignment too granularly - it's not &quot;there are three possibilities per axis&quot; but rather, &quot;there are infinite possibilities per axis, and these fall into three broad, sweeping categories.&quot; Again, a &quot;good&quot; person is not &quot;perfect&quot; in D&amp;D... just &quot;good&quot; more often than not - he DOES and SHOULD have flaws that keep him closer to the +3.0000001 than to the +10 (reserved for Angels, Gods, and other beings &quot;born/created/made/defined&quot; of &quot;Pure Goodness&quot;).&nbsp; 99% of mortals tend to spend their time mucking around between +6 and -6... and one mortal in a generation might go as high as +8 or -8.--The Sigil</blockquote>

[QUOTE="The Sigil, post: 937346, member: 2013"] I think you're either missing the point or side-stepping the question. The question was not about the "cultural stability" or "social stability" of your world. Leaders of men have nothing to do with the question at hand. I think the question of "how do you provide stability to your world," was meant as, "how do you provide moral consistency with no absolutes?" Is the same action, carried out with the same motivations, ethical/moral in one geographic region and unethical/immoral in another? Whether or not you like the labels, "good/evil/law/chaos," the question is a legitimate one - is there any sort of "moral" or "ethical" stability in your world - are there blacks and whites and shades of gray - or are all actions always equally gray? In a "true" moral relativist world, all actions are always equally gray... because the action itself means nothing. It becomes strictly a matter of DM Fiat to say, "that is a good action" and "that is an evil action," and the DM can change his mind at whim. Players need to know that an action that is considered "good" at one time is considered good every time - if it changes, then there IS no moral stability. And that consideration is, for all intents and purposes, the Truth as it exists in your game world. Not in the real world, necessarily, and not in everyone else's world, but in YOUR game world. If a world that is one single monochromatic shade of moral gray is the world you play in, how then do you explain the existence of gods, clerics, paladins, outsiders, positive and negative energy, and a whole host of other things assumed in the system? These things rely on there being (at least) shades of gray, if not black and white. For the "standard" D&D campaign, these issues are important. Finally, is a world where everything is the same shade of moral gray as compelling as a world where there are lighter and darker shades? I think not. A world where everything is the same shade of moral gray is a one-color world; that's even LESS compelling and has less potential for simulating realism than a world that has varying shades of gray - you can represent more with black and white than you can with just one shade of gray - and if, as I do, you believe that the D&D system is not "black and white" but rather "the whole spectrum of grays between black and white as well," you have a lot more opportunity for detail and thought. Of course, NEITHER of those is as good as "full color," but as this is a game, and not reality, you really have no chance of getting "full color." ;) So in your world, gods create truth... is the truth created by the gods the Truth for your world then? Can your gods die/be killed/replaced - or even change their minds? If so, you are again reducing everything to the same shade of moral gray. If not, then you have a standard of Truth for your game world - and I'm not sure what you are complaining about the alignment system for, in that case, unless it is a dissatisfaction borne of trying to reconcile the alignment system with your Real-World beliefs. You see, I think the grid-like system is not as "restrictive" as you think. I know it's been discussed in the past, and I myself don't actually "assign point values," but think of the alignment system as a number line... where -10 is absolute, pure evil and +10 is the whitest, purest good. The alignment system is not a "grid" so much as it is a "line of demarcation" along the spectrum... "EVIL" is not exactly -10, "NEUTRAL" is not exactly 0, and "GOOD" is not exactly +10. "Good" might describe anyone from +3.00000001 to +10, while "Evil" might describe anyone from -3.00000001 to -10, and "Neutral" is -3.0000000 to +3.0000000 - which means there are an infinite number of "slightly different" shades of neutral (or good or evil)... it's only when you cross from 3.000000 to 3.0000001 that you change alignments - at 3.00000 you are "neutral with strong good tendencies," if you will. In the same way, we have many shades of red... and all of them are "red" - but not all of them are the same, "red." I would like to see you give a little further elucidation of your system, but from what it seems to me, you are taking alignment too granularly - it's not "there are three possibilities per axis" but rather, "there are infinite possibilities per axis, and these fall into three broad, sweeping categories." Again, a "good" person is not "perfect" in D&D... just "good" more often than not - he DOES and SHOULD have flaws that keep him closer to the +3.0000001 than to the +10 (reserved for Angels, Gods, and other beings "born/created/made/defined" of "Pure Goodness"). 99% of mortals tend to spend their time mucking around between +6 and -6... and one mortal in a generation might go as high as +8 or -8. --The Sigil [/QUOTE]

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