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<blockquote data-quote="briggart" data-source="post: 9491872" data-attributes="member: 6805135">I agree that he is a villain in the sense that his actions end up creating more suffering than good, but not in the sense of actively trying to harm people for funsies, or even simply because he sees them as pawn. As you said, in Dune he's clearly shown to be looking for a way out.In The Good Place (to open yet another tangent <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" alt="😆" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f606.png" title="Grinning squinting face&nbsp; &nbsp; :laughing:" data-shortname=":laughing:" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" />), he would be somebody caught by the Law of Unintended Consequences, rather than Sean loading puppies into a cannon to blow them up.My point was about how I understand some of the discussion I've seen online. I get the impression some analyses of Paul's character seem to assume that the issue was that he was an outsider, using the Fremen for his own plans, and this ultimately lead to galactic genocide and tyranny, but if the Fremen leader had instead come from their own ranks,&nbsp; interested only in freedom for their people and no hidden agenda (in this sense a &quot;real messiah&quot;) things would have ended up&nbsp; happily everafter.&nbsp; I should have been clearer.The underlying issue of how much Fremen religion is original, I think is left a bit ambiguous. The Misionaria Protectiva clearly had a lot of impact on shaping Fremen beliefs at the time of the novels, but it seems they were able to be so successful because the latched to a set of already well established traditions. After drinking the waters of life and merging with Ramallo, Jessica realizes that Fremen Reverend Mother tradition is much older than she thought, predates their arrival on Arrakis, and had been developed independently from the Bene Gesserit. Fremen religion is after all assumed to be a future evolution of Islam, so it's not unreasonable it already included messianic figures before being twisted by the BG.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="briggart, post: 9491872, member: 6805135"] I agree that he is a villain in the sense that his actions end up creating more suffering than good, but not in the sense of actively trying to harm people for funsies, or even simply because he sees them as pawn. As you said, in Dune he's clearly shown to be looking for a way out. In [I]The Good Place [/I](to open yet another tangent 😆), he would be somebody caught by the Law of Unintended Consequences, rather than Sean loading puppies into a cannon to blow them up. My point was about how I understand some of the discussion I've seen online. I get the impression some analyses of Paul's character seem to assume that the issue was that he was an outsider, using the Fremen for his own plans, and this ultimately lead to galactic genocide and tyranny, but if the Fremen leader had instead come from their own ranks, interested only in freedom for their people and no hidden agenda (in this sense a "real messiah") things would have ended up happily everafter. I should have been clearer. The underlying issue of how much Fremen religion is original, I think is left a bit ambiguous. The Misionaria Protectiva clearly had a lot of impact on shaping Fremen beliefs at the time of the novels, but it seems they were able to be so successful because the latched to a set of already well established traditions. After drinking the waters of life and merging with Ramallo, Jessica realizes that Fremen Reverend Mother tradition is much older than she thought, predates their arrival on Arrakis, and had been developed independently from the Bene Gesserit. Fremen religion is after all assumed to be a future evolution of Islam, so it's not unreasonable it already included messianic figures before being twisted by the BG. [/QUOTE]

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