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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dannyalcatraz" data-source="post: 5201715" data-attributes="member: 19675">I would argue that you have to learn those subskills in order to learn how to program.No, its not any less artificial.  Its just the way it is.Not quite.Cosmic entities (henceforth covering philosophies as well, for 3.X Clerics' sake) are rules-breakers/makers.  Clerics don't learn spells, they learn prayers to cosmic entities which they reinforce with pledges of loyalty.  Cosmic entities, in response to those prayers and promises of loyalty (if they're found to be satisfactory), give them access to what they prayed for- spells, power over the undead, etc...all while not forcing them to put in the same kind of effort as arcane spellcasters who then don't have time to learn how to fight or wear armor (and thus, have lower BABs, ASF, and non-existent armor proficiency).  Clerics are just borrowing a bit of power, they don't actually have it.  Everybody else has to start from scratch.Or, to put it a different way, Clerics and similar classes don't follow the normal rules of the world because cosmic entities are giving them a loophole.  However, it is entirely conceivable that cosmic entities have their OWN rules by which they must abide...but those rules are not within the purview of D&D.  You'd have to look at something like The Primal Order to examine the campaign world at that level.Skills...personally, I think they're over-abstracted, and always have been in D&D.  I've always preferred the "use & improve" skill systems that exist out there.And as I pointed out, I'm "satisfied" with 3.X's weapon proficiency rules only insofar as I don't think its a good use of my time to convert a 2Ed system into the varous 3.X games out there.  I greatly prefer the 2Ed version of narrow weapon proficiencies.My intuition is against abstracting things further- one reason (among many) I don't particularly care for 4Ed- so I don't go for HRs that go in that direction.But just to be perfectly clear: <ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">I also don't want to change 3.X into 2Ed.  IMHO, 3.X is the best incarnation of D&D to date.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">I have to be pragmatic about abstraction- every RPG system abstracts SOMETHING.  Look at HERO, my favorite system: no shortage of abstraction there.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Multiclassing- especially that which involves some kind of stunt powers (magic, psionics, racial abilities, etc.) works in a variety of different ways in different systems...and is completely absent in some.</li> </ol></blockquote>

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