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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 7676265" data-attributes="member: 5834"><p>Either you are new or play in very tight groups. I don't know. Player abuse has been common in every edition of D&D dating back to the earliest editions. The entire reason two-weapon fighting has been reduced in effectiveness to where it is now is because it was abused in the earliest editions. The abuse complaints about casters has been there since 2E and reached its apex in 3E. The section you keep citing on goals of play, "play for group fun", and every other iteration of that idea has been talked about in every edition for three decades. Doesn't matter. Many players, I have no idea what percentage, have fun trying to make the most powerful character they possibly can. They will push the DM to the limits even if other players don't like it. They won't rein it in unless the DM forces them to rein it in. Maybe you kick players like this from your group, but such players will find new groups. Thus they become another DM's problem. And thus the complaints on this thread.</p></blockquote><p></p>