D&D 3E/3.5 New Spells for 3.5E D&D, need help editing them

[Oversquid]

Alright ENworld, I've come up with some new spells from level 5 to level 9 that are meant to deal Force damage. I get the feeling that some of these spells are rather... "Out of balance" when it comes to the spell level they're supposed to be cast from.

In the end, I need your help to get it down to those "Balanced" levels.

Here are the spells:

Lvl 5:

Forceball: This spell deals 1d6 damage every 2 levels up to a maximum of 10d6 worth of Force Damage in a 20 foot radius. There is a reflex save for half, and those who failed their reflex saves take full damage, and are flung 20 feet away from the blast center in the direction the most away from the blast center, and those that fall will fall prone unless they succeed on another reflex save. Creatures of Huge size or larger are immune to the knockback effect.

Takes 1 standard action to cast.


(I've intended this one to be like a specialized Fireball)


Lvl 6:

Force Nova: This spell deals 1d4 damage per level up to a maximum of 15d4 worth of Force Damage in a 20 foot radius around yourself. This attack deals half damage on a successful reflex save, but a failure flings you back 50 feet from the caster and if you fail another reflex save will knock you prone. All creature sizes are affected.

Takes 1 standard action to cast.



(This one isn't supposed to be a heavy damage dealer per say, but it is meant to be more tactical)


Lvl 7:

Force Cone: This spell deals 1d6 damage per level to a maximum of 15d6 in a 60 foot cone shaped blast. There is a reflex save for half, but if they fail their reflex saves, they will fly back 20 feet from the caster, and unless they succeed on another reflex save, they will fall over prone.


(This is another AoE Force spell with a different shape, something like Cone of Cold)


Lvl 8:

Force Chain: This spell deals 1d8 damage per level to a maximum of 15d8. This spell also extends to as many multiple targets as this spell has die (for example, if this spell deals 13d8 damage, this spell extends to up to 13 targets), however per ricochet, the total damage goes down by 1 die for each ricochet. The allowed targets for ricocheting are those within a 60 foot radius of the initial target.


(This one is supposed to be the Chain Missiles from hell)


Lvl 9:

Force Shower: This spell creates 4 orbs of force that crash down on their target areas, each having a 40ft radius spread. Those struck directly by the orb of force take 6d6 force damage, and then they must make a reflex save or fall prone. Those around the explosion take 2d6 force damage, and those caught in the explosion must succeed on a reflex save or be thrown back 20 feet away from the blast. If the target was subject to multiple blasts, then they fly back 20 feet in the direction the most away from the blasts. If they are encircled by blasts, they fly straight up into the air 20ft. Those that fall to the ground must then make another reflex save or fall prone. The initial target if a subject was the target does not take this area of effect damage, nor do they succumb to the knockback.



(This one is meant to be a more tactical Meteor Swarm spell, but doesn't have nearly as much AoE damage per say)


If you guys need clarification on any of those descriptions, let me know, and I'll try and clarify. Thank you guys.

 

[Sekhmet]

Lvl 5: Forceball: Cone of Cold deals d6/caster level up to 15d6, which makes this spell better in all respects until level 14, with an additional affect tacked on. Maybe reduce it to d6/CL, max 10.

Lvl 6: Force Nova: I laughed. Fun spell, I'd reduce the damage to d4/CL, max 15.
What is the casting time?

Lvl 7: Force Cone: Change damage to d8/CL, max 15. This is strictly worse than Nova in terms of versatility, so increased damage is good. Alternately, you could make this the level 6, and Nova the level 7, and make this d6/CL, max 15.
Also, Delayed Blast Fireball deals d6/CL, max 20 and does not make an opponent prone, so you're definitely making a spell that is stronger than the equivalent level evocation spells.

Lvl 8: Force Chain: Polar Ray, just about the go-to evocation spell for high level wizards, deals d6/CL, max 25, and requires a Ranged Touch. Force Chain is strictly better, I'd probably never use Polar Ray again.
Consider making it 15d8 and calling it quits.

Lvl 9:

Force Shower: 6d6 targeted, 2d6 AoE, 20' knockback affect, d6/ten feet traveled into hard surfaces, so effectively 4d6 AoE. This spell is better than Meteor Swarm (2d6 targeted, 6d6 AoE with a Reflex/half, defeated by Fire Resistance). Your spell is better in that there is no way to resist Force effects, but still in the realm of a 9th level spell.
I don't consider Meteor Swarm to be a very good 9th level spell.

 

[Oversquid]

Lvl 5: Forceball: Cone of Cold deals d6/caster level up to 15d6, which makes this spell better in all respects until level 14, with an additional affect tacked on. Maybe reduce it to d6/CL, max 10.

Lvl 6: Force Nova: I laughed. Fun spell, I'd reduce the damage to d4/CL, max 15.
What is the casting time?

Lvl 7: Force Cone: Change damage to d8/CL, max 15. This is strictly worse than Nova in terms of versatility, so increased damage is good. Alternately, you could make this the level 6, and Nova the level 7, and make this d6/CL, max 15.
Also, Delayed Blast Fireball deals d6/CL, max 20 and does not make an opponent prone, so you're definitely making a spell that is stronger than the equivalent level evocation spells.

Lvl 8: Force Chain: Polar Ray, just about the go-to evocation spell for high level wizards, deals d6/CL, max 25, and requires a Ranged Touch. Force Chain is strictly better, I'd probably never use Polar Ray again.
Consider making it 15d8 and calling it quits.

Lvl 9:

Force Shower: 6d6 targeted, 2d6 AoE, 20' knockback affect, d6/ten feet traveled into hard surfaces, so effectively 4d6 AoE. This spell is better than Meteor Swarm (2d6 targeted, 6d6 AoE with a Reflex/half, defeated by Fire Resistance). Your spell is better in that there is no way to resist Force effects, but still in the realm of a 9th level spell.
I don't consider Meteor Swarm to be a very good 9th level spell.

I applied most of the changes you suggested in the original post, and then seeing as how both Force Shower and Meteor Swarm require Reflex Saves, with Meteor Swarm simply causing 1d6 more fire damage on a successful save, I might have to power up Meteor Swarm as well to compensate.

Would you think 7d6 or 8d6 damage per meteor AoE be unreasonable?

 

[Sekhmet]

Absolutely not. A level 9 spell that could deal 2d8x4 (36) plus 8d8x4 (128) [164 damage average, when all balls are centered on one target] that is subject to resistance and saves for half is not an over or under powered spell.

Remember that anytime you are flung against a hard object, you take the same damage you would take if you had fallen into it. 1d6 per 10' flung. Some of your spells have additional damage hard coded into them that way.

I'd probably use your spells more than I would use same level evocation spells, but only because I like the utility aspect more than a few extra dice of damage.

 

[TKDB]

Lvl 5:

Forceball: This spell deals 1d6 damage every 2 levels up to a maximum of 10d6 worth of Force Damage in a 20 foot radius. There is a reflex save for half, and those who failed their reflex saves take full damage, and are flung 20 feet away from the blast center in the direction the most away from the blast center, and those that fall will fall prone unless they succeed on another reflex save. Creatures of Huge size or larger are immune to the knockback effect.

Takes 1 standard action to cast.

This is very similar to a Fireball with the Explosive Spell metamagic and the same effective spell level, so I'm going to use that as a point of comparison. The Explosive Fireball deals far more damage (not only does it deal more dice of damage on the main spell at any level before 20, it automatically adds additional damage to creatures that are thrown even if they don't hit an object), doesn't give targets a second save to avoid falling prone, and affects creatures of any size. The advantages of this spell are that the save DC is higher (since it's actually a level 5 spell rather than a level 3 with +2 metamagic), it's force instead of fire (so it's more reliable against incorporeal foes and pretty much never subject to resistances/immunities), and it isn't reliant on metamagic (so you don't need to spend a feat and a sorcerer won't have to worry about increasing the casting time or using a method of quickening metamagic). Overall, I'm inclined to say that the strengths of the Explosive Fireball relative to this spell outweigh the weaknesses, so this one needs a boost. At the very least, it should knockback creatures of all sizes and not have a second save to avoid falling prone. The damage could also use a boost. If you're worried about keeping it from being strictly better than Cone of Cold (frankly, I wouldn't -- Cone of Cold isn't that good of a spell to begin with, and there are already better level 5 blast spells in official material, such as Cacaphonic Blast and Cyclonic Blast), make it 1d4 damage per level to a max of 15d4 rather than 1d6/2 lvls, max 10d6. That makes the damage more respectable while still keeping it below Cone of Cold to compensate for the added effect (not to mention better area and damage type).

Lvl 6:

Force Nova: This spell deals 1d4 damage per level up to a maximum of 15d4 worth of Force Damage in a 20 foot radius around yourself. This attack deals half damage on a successful reflex save, but a failure flings you back 50 feet from the caster and if you fail another reflex save will knock you prone. All creature sizes are affected.

Takes 1 standard action to cast.



(This one isn't supposed to be a heavy damage dealer per say, but it is meant to be more tactical)

I will reiterate that giving the target multiple saves is generally bad (for instance, note that Phantasmal Killer is two whole spell levels lower than the next lowest level true save-or-die) but other than that this seems ok. I'd be pretty reluctant to use it with the two saves, but if the knocking prone was tied into the knockback with the first failed save this would be quite reasonable for a 6th-level spell slot.

Lvl 7:

Force Cone: This spell deals 1d6 damage per level to a maximum of 15d6 in a 60 foot cone shaped blast. There is a reflex save for half, but if they fail their reflex saves, they will fly back 20 feet from the caster, and unless they succeed on another reflex save, they will fall over prone.


(This is another AoE Force spell with a different shape, something like Cone of Cold)

This is almost directly comparable to an Explosive Cone of Cold, and much like the Fireball comparison earlier I'd definitely say that the Cone of Cold is better. The Explosive Cone stands to knock creatures back farther (it shoves them to the edge of the spell's area), deals additional damage on a failed save, and doesn't give a second save to avoid falling prone. At the very least, take away the second save. Also, by 7th level spells you can start letting the damage scale up to 20d6 (see Delayed Blast Fireball).

Lvl 8:

Force Chain: This spell deals 1d8 damage per level to a maximum of 15d8. This spell also extends to as many multiple targets as this spell has die (for example, if this spell deals 13d8 damage, this spell extends to up to 13 targets), however per ricochet, the total damage goes down by 1 die for each ricochet. The allowed targets for ricocheting are those within a 60 foot radius of the initial target.


(This one is supposed to be the Chain Missiles from hell)

Seems fine to me for an 8th-level spell. Though frankly, even for a blaster caster, I'm generally not looking at blasting spells for those slots unless it's a lower-level spell with loads of metamagic on it, so my judgment may be a little fuzzy.

Lvl 9:

Force Shower: This spell creates 4 orbs of force that crash down on their target areas, each having a 40ft radius spread. Those struck directly by the orb of force take 6d6 force damage, and then they must make a reflex save or fall prone. Those around the explosion take 2d6 force damage, and those caught in the explosion must succeed on a reflex save or be thrown back 20 feet away from the blast. If the target was subject to multiple blasts, then they fly back 20 feet in the direction the most away from the blasts. If they are encircled by blasts, they fly straight up into the air 20ft. Those that fall to the ground must then make another reflex save or fall prone. The initial target if a subject was the target does not take this area of effect damage, nor do they succumb to the knockback.



(This one is meant to be a more tactical Meteor Swarm spell, but doesn't have nearly as much AoE damage per say)

This spell could probably use a bit more oomph. At this level, you're competing with really high-power stuff -- Dominate Monster, Mass Hold Monster, Power Word Kill, Energy Drain, Wail of the Banshee, Time Stop...to say nothing of really stinky cheese Shapechange. And that's just in core!
Meteor Swarm itself is pretty meh -- even if you make all four ranged touch attacks (admittedly not too difficult, but even if you only miss on a nat 1, odds are one in five castings won't pull it off -- point being, it's not exactly reliable) you're looking at a little over 100 total damage on average to the primary target, and less to secondary targets in the blast area. Sounds like a lot, but compared to what a good martial character can dish out with a full attack at that level (or even a few levels earlier), that's a pretty underwhelming use of a precious 9th-level spell slot. If you tacked that knockback effect onto Meteor Swarm as-written and changed it to force, I wouldn't call it overpowered at all.

At least not by comparison to what arcane casters are already capable of, that is. If you're intentionally trying to tone casters down a bit (quite an understandable desire), then don't worry too much about bringing these spells "up to par" with existing stuff.

 

[Oversquid]

This is very similar to a Fireball with the Explosive Spell metamagic and the same effective spell level, so I'm going to use that as a point of comparison. The Explosive Fireball deals far more damage (not only does it deal more dice of damage on the main spell at any level before 20, it automatically adds additional damage to creatures that are thrown even if they don't hit an object), doesn't give targets a second save to avoid falling prone, and affects creatures of any size. The advantages of this spell are that the save DC is higher (since it's actually a level 5 spell rather than a level 3 with +2 metamagic), it's force instead of fire (so it's more reliable against incorporeal foes and pretty much never subject to resistances/immunities), and it isn't reliant on metamagic (so you don't need to spend a feat and a sorcerer won't have to worry about increasing the casting time or using a method of quickening metamagic). Overall, I'm inclined to say that the strengths of the Explosive Fireball relative to this spell outweigh the weaknesses, so this one needs a boost. At the very least, it should knockback creatures of all sizes and not have a second save to avoid falling prone. The damage could also use a boost. If you're worried about keeping it from being strictly better than Cone of Cold (frankly, I wouldn't -- Cone of Cold isn't that good of a spell to begin with, and there are already better level 5 blast spells in official material, such as Cacaphonic Blast and Cyclonic Blast), make it 1d4 damage per level to a max of 15d4 rather than 1d6/2 lvls, max 10d6. That makes the damage more respectable while still keeping it below Cone of Cold to compensate for the added effect (not to mention better area and damage type).


I will reiterate that giving the target multiple saves is generally bad (for instance, note that Phantasmal Killer is two whole spell levels lower than the next lowest level true save-or-die) but other than that this seems ok. I'd be pretty reluctant to use it with the two saves, but if the knocking prone was tied into the knockback with the first failed save this would be quite reasonable for a 6th-level spell slot.


This is almost directly comparable to an Explosive Cone of Cold, and much like the Fireball comparison earlier I'd definitely say that the Cone of Cold is better. The Explosive Cone stands to knock creatures back farther (it shoves them to the edge of the spell's area), deals additional damage on a failed save, and doesn't give a second save to avoid falling prone. At the very least, take away the second save. Also, by 7th level spells you can start letting the damage scale up to 20d6 (see Delayed Blast Fireball).


Seems fine to me for an 8th-level spell. Though frankly, even for a blaster caster, I'm generally not looking at blasting spells for those slots unless it's a lower-level spell with loads of metamagic on it, so my judgment may be a little fuzzy.



This spell could probably use a bit more oomph. At this level, you're competing with really high-power stuff -- Dominate Monster, Mass Hold Monster, Power Word Kill, Energy Drain, Wail of the Banshee, Time Stop...to say nothing of really stinky cheese Shapechange. And that's just in core!
Meteor Swarm itself is pretty meh -- even if you make all four ranged touch attacks (admittedly not too difficult, but even if you only miss on a nat 1, odds are one in five castings won't pull it off -- point being, it's not exactly reliable) you're looking at a little over 100 total damage on average to the primary target, and less to secondary targets in the blast area. Sounds like a lot, but compared to what a good martial character can dish out with a full attack at that level (or even a few levels earlier), that's a pretty underwhelming use of a precious 9th-level spell slot. If you tacked that knockback effect onto Meteor Swarm as-written and changed it to force, I wouldn't call it overpowered at all.

At least not by comparison to what arcane casters are already capable of, that is. If you're intentionally trying to tone casters down a bit (quite an understandable desire), then don't worry too much about bringing these spells "up to par" with existing stuff.

Force Shower is intended to have more of a tactical side effect to it while doing extra damage as a plus, but I figure if you're going for pure damage, Force Shower might not be the best, as Force Shower just displaces, but thats what I see anyways. Its another nuke type spell, with a little utility in it aside from damage.

 

[TKDB]

Force Shower is intended to have more of a tactical side effect to it while doing extra damage as a plus, but I figure if you're going for pure damage, Force Shower might not be the best, as Force Shower just displaces, but thats what I see anyways. Its another nuke type spell, with a little utility in it aside from damage.

For a 9th-level spell, you're going to need something a lot more significant than 20 ft of pushing to make it a worthwhile tactical spell. For a spell slot that high level, the tactical effect is so minor that I would look at it as primarily a damage spell, with a small bonus. And like I said previously, to justify a 9th-level spell slot on a blast spell rather than one of the other options available to you at that level, it better pack one heck of a punch, or have a really good secondary effect (like Maw of Chaos).

If you're wanting to treat it primarily as a tactical spell for rearranging the battlefield, I'd recommend rebuilding it from the ground up rather than basing it on Meteor Swarm.

 

[Dandu]

Look at Wings of Flurry from Races of the Dragon for inspiration.

4th level spell that deals 1d6/level (no cap) force damage to all targets in a 30ft burst centered on the caster, reflex save for half, and which stuns on a failed reflex save.

Melf's Unicorn Arrow from the PHB2 is another fun blasting spell. It fires a number of arrows which increase with level, and each arrow can make a bull rush check. Getting hit with multiple arrows increases the Bull Rush DC.